A Calvinist Revival or Spiders Web?
Drew Angerer for The New York Times – Mark Dever, pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church tends not to mention Calvin in his sermons.
Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival
By MARK OPPENHEIMER
Published: January 3, 2014
For those who are sad that the year-end news quizzes are past, here’s one to start 2014: If you have joined a church that preaches a Tulip theology, does that mean a) the pastor bakes flowers into the communion wafers, b) the pastor believes that flowers that rise again every spring symbolize the resurrection, or c) the pastor is a Calvinist?
The acronym gets no cheerier from there.
Evangelicalism is in the midst of a Calvinist revival. Increasing numbers of preachers and professors teach the views of the 16th-century French reformer. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller – megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors – are all Calvinist. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up, particularly among worshipers in their 20s and 30s.
In the Southern Baptist Convention, the country’s largest Protestant denomination, the rise of Calvinism has provoked discord. In a 2012 poll of 1,066 Southern Baptist pastors conducted by LifeWay Research, a nonprofit group associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, 30 percent considered their churches Calvinist – while twice as many were concerned “about the impact of Calvinism.”
Calvinism is a theological orientation, not a denomination or organization. The Puritans were Calvinist. Presbyterians descend from Scottish Calvinists. Many early Baptists were Calvinist. But in the 19th century, Protestantism moved toward the non-Calvinist belief that humans must consent to their own salvation – an optimistic, quintessentially American belief. In the United States today, one large denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, is unapologetically Calvinist.
But in the last 30 years or so, Calvinists have gained prominence in other branches of Protestantism, and at churches that used to worry little about theology. In 1994, when Mark Dever interviewed at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist church in Washington, the hiring committee didn’t even ask him about his theology.
“So I said, ‘Let me think about what you wouldn’t like about me, if you knew,’ ” Mr. Dever recalled. And he told them that he was a Calvinist. “And I had to explain to them what that meant. I didn’t want to move my wife and children here and lose the job.”
Mr. Dever, 53, said that when he took over in 1994, about 130 members attended on Sundays, and their average age was 70. Today, the church gets about 1,000 worshipers, with an average age of 30. And while Mr. Dever tends not to mention Calvin in his sermons, his educated audience, many of whom work in politics, knows, and likes, what it is hearing.
“I think it is apparent in his teaching,” said Sarah Rotman, 34, who works for the World Bank. “The real focus on Scripture, and that all the answers we seek in this life can be found in the word of God. In a lot of his preaching, he does really talk about our sinfulness and our need of the Savior.”
That focus on sinfulness differs from a lot of popular evangelicalism in recent years. It runs contrary to the “prosperity gospel” preachers, who imply that faith can make one rich. It sounds nothing like the feel-good affirmations of preachers and authors like Joel Osteen, who treat the Bible like a self-help book, or a guide to better business.
“What you’d be hearing in some megachurches is, ‘God wants you to be a good parent, and here are seven ways God can help you to be a good parent,’ ” said Collin Hansen, the author of “Young, Restless, Reformed: A Journalist’s Journey With the New Calvinists.” “Or, ‘God wants you to have a good marriage, so here are three ways to do that.’ ” By contrast, Mr. Hansen said, those who attend Calvinist churches want the preacher to “tell them about Jesus.”
Some non-Calvinists say that the rise of Calvinism has been accomplished in part through sneaky methods. Roger E. Olson, a Baylor University professor and the author of “Against Calvinism,” is the Calvinists’ most outspoken critic.
“One of the concerns is that new graduates from certain Baptist seminaries have been infiltrating churches that are not Calvinist, and not telling the churches or search committees who are not Calvinist,” Professor Olson said. According to what he has heard, young preachers “wait several months and then begin to stock the church library with books” by Calvinists like John Piper and Mark Driscoll. They hold special classes on Calvinist topics, he said, and they staff the church with fellow Calvinists.
“Often the church ends up splitting, with the non-Calvinists starting their own church,” Professor Olson said.
At its annual meeting in June, the Southern Baptist Convention received a report from its special Calvinism Advisory Committee, which addressed charges both of anti-Calvinist prejudice within the denomination and of unfair dealing by Calvinists.
“We should expect all candidates for ministry positions in the local church to be fully candid and forthcoming about all matters of faith and doctrine,” the report read.
While many neo-Calvinists shy away from politics, they generally take conservative positions on Scripture and on social issues. Many don’t believe that women should be ministers or elders. But Serene Jones, the president of Union Theological Seminary, said that Calvin’s influence was not limited to conservatives.
Liberal Christians, including some Congregationalists and liberal Presbyterians, may just take up other aspects of Calvin’s teachings, Dr. Jones said. She mentioned Calvin’s belief that “civic engagement is the main form of obedience to God.” She added that, unlike many of today’s conservatives, “Calvin did not read Scripture literally.” Often Calvin “is misquoting it, and he makes up Scripture passages that don’t exist.”
Brad Vermurlen, a Notre Dame graduate student writing a dissertation on the new Calvinists, said that the rise of Calvinism was real, but that the hoopla might level off.
“Ten years ago, everyone was talking about the ’emergent church,’ ” Mr. Vermurlen said. “And five years ago, people were talking about the ‘missional church.’ And now ‘new Calvinism.’ I don’t want to say the new Calvinism is a fad, but I’m wondering if this is one of those things American evangelicals want to talk about for five years, and then they’ll go on living their lives and planting their churches. Or is this something we’ll see 10 or 20 years from now?”
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-calvinist-revival-for-evangelicals.html
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DTW COMMENTS: Calvinist Revival or Calvinist Spiders Web
Calvinism is the sneakiest, most devillish doctrine around. It lures people in through it’s so called ‘Sola Scriptura’ and their ‘Got Questions’ websites where they preach a doctrine that is so close to the truth but yet so far. The furthermost thing from the truth is their ‘Doctrines of Grace’ (TULIP).
| Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) |
| Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not–indeed he cannot–choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ–it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation–it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God. |
| Unconditional Election |
| God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation. |
| Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) |
| Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation. |
| Irresistible Grace |
| In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependent upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended. |
| Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) |
| You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected some to salvation. All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. |
It is a but a sign of the times we live in,
Ephesians 4:14 “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”
People are leaving the Apostolic churches (Latter Rain) and Word of Faith church’s etc., in seek of sound doctrine and they are being swept up in the spiders web of Calvinism believing it to be the gospel truth which it is not. Calvinism is a cult.
Calvinist churches are not having a revival, they are in fact fulfilling biblical prophecy because they are part and parcel of the end times delusion – the Roman Catholic Church.
The remnant (genuinely born again Christians) need to steer clear from Rome, and God warns you
Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
Mark Devious (sorry, Dever) is just another monumental example of how accurate the Bible is in its predictions. Listen to this:
The lawlessness of immorality does not always refer to debauchery but also to unlawful acts such as the manipulation of corrupt legal institutions to kill off your opponents or to distort Scripture and misrepresent the holy character of God (remember John Calvin?). Listen to the following abhorrent lawless, wanton and immoral statements.
Calvin seems to have been the only one who knew the secret counsels of God. A secret is a secret unless it is revealed to someone. Calvin seems to be that someone. The question however is: Was it God who revealed it to him or the god of this world to demean, dishonor and degrade the holy Name of God?
According to the Brown’s Dictionary of the Bible “The Nicolaitans imputed their wickedness to God as the cause . . .? What did Jesus say? ” . . . the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which thing I hate.” (Revelation 2:15).
Correct, there is no “revival” occurring in calvinism. It is just people that don’t want the truth, so they run to the lie of calvinism.
Iw would be great to disprove “Calvinism” (TULIP) from the Bible. Free will for instance, which is contrary to Scripture (Dan 4:35, Matt 11:27,John 1:13, John 6:37,John 6:44, John 6:65, John 17:6, Act 2:23, Rom 9:16, Rom 9:18,Rom 9:23, Rom 11:7 ,Eph 1:4,5; Eph 1:11, Eph 2:5; Php 2:13;2 Thes 2:13; Rev 17:8 etc.) So it would seem much more relevant to discuss the source (The Bible)and not personalities or “isms”. We are not followers of Calvin but of Jesus Christ
Andre
Please read all our articles on Calvinism here where Calvinism has been refuted over and over and over again. https://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/religions/western-religions/calvinism-calvinist-reformed-theology/
Deborah, you have written the following;
Calvinist churches are not having a revival, they are in fact fulfilling biblical prophecy because they are part and parcel of the end times delusion – the Roman Catholic Church.
The remnant (genuinely born again Christians) need to steer clear from Rome, and God warns you
Revelation 18:4 ”And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
Please explain how believing election makes you a Roman Catholic and fulfilling prophecy.If one believes in election can one be saved?
Joe
>> Please explain how believing election makes you a Roman Catholic and fulfilling prophecy.
Please read all our articles on Calvinism here where Calvinism has been refuted over and over and over again. https://www.discerningtheworld.com/category/religions/western-religions/calvinism-calvinist-reformed-theology/
>> If one believes in election can one be saved?
To be saved you need to believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved by grace, in Calvinism to be ‘saved’ you need to believe in the doctrines of Grace and you are Elect by pride that God would choose you before the foundation of the world to be ‘saved’.
Deborah, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I do not want to read your refutations of Calvinism. I would like to know in a nutshell how does believing in election make you a Roman Catholic.
You did not answer my second question either, or am I to understand from your response that those who believe in election cannot be saved?
Joe
>> I do not want to read your refutations of Calvinism. I would like to know in a nutshell how does believing in election make you a Roman Catholic.
If you don’t want to read what we have to say about Calvinism then that is your prerogative. However in our articles it contains the answer to your question. I am not going to try explain to you in a ‘nutshell’ something that takes longer and must be said in an article for instance: Calvinism’s Roman Catholic Connection
>> You did not answer my second question either, or am I to understand from your response that those who believe in election cannot be saved?
I answered it. If someone follows false teaching and refuses to change their ways (stop following the false teaching) and repents then it is very possible they are not saved.
“I would like to know in a nutshell how does believing in election make you a Roman Catholic.”
Because Augustine the Roman Catholic, invented John Calvin’s unbiblical definition of election. Calvin actually repeatedly said that Augustine was the one he followed. Calvin never followed the Bible.
Abe
Yes, that is the nutshell version I guess 😉
Deborah
Let me say again that I value your interaction. I was raised a Catholic and was eventually confirmed into that institution before trusting on Jesus Christ and His cross alone. I have read and own some of Dave Hunt’s work concerning Catholicism and Calvinism. His research was flawed in “A woman rides the beast” and sadly picked apart by Catholic Scholars and so his work on the Calvinism and Catholicism connect will mean little to me since I do not have the time or inclination to follow up every quote and endnote in the article. The mistake people make is to think that because the Catholics are heretics that they do not have the ability to see through a weak argument. They have the greatest historical resources available and they know how to use them in the service of the evil one.
Theologically “election” is the polar opposite of what the RC lot teach (General prevenient grace) as you know. All of this to say that I do not care who is associated with a specific doctrine as long as the doctrine is Biblically defensible. The fact that evil men are associated with election doesn’t make or break the argument. Though the doctrine of the Trinity is true you will find that the Catholics have a decent understanding thereof. Just because they are evil it doesn’t make everything they say wrong.
On the second issue I see that you are reluctant to come out and say that those who believe in election are unsaved. In an earlier exchange with me you said,
“To be saved you need to believe in Jesus Christ and you are saved by grace, in Calvinism to be ‘saved’ you need to believe in the doctrines of Grace and you are Elect by pride that God would choose you before the foundation of the world to be ‘saved’.”
Perhaps you have overstated your case? If not and you believe that people who believe in election do fall away although they were saved beforehand then what must they do to be saved again?
Metaphysically you have a problem. You hold to contradictory ideas. On the one hand, you hold that God foreknows the future choices of humans. On the other hand, you hold to the libertarian view of the will which states that one is able to act contrary to all possible influences upon the will. In this case, it is impossible for anyone to know what choice one might make before the choice is made. Thus, if God knows beforehand what a person chooses could such a person choose any other way? According to libertarianism he would have to have this ability, therefore God cannot know beforehand what one will choose. This is why the logic of libertarianism necessarily leads to Open Theism and a denial of God’s omniscience.
Joe wrote
Did God know aeons before He created Adam and Eve what choice they would make in the Garden of Eden? I’m sure you would say “of course He knew because He is omniscient.” OK, let’s assume they did not take of the forbidden fruit and eat thereof. Would He have known it beforehand? The fact that God knows beforehand what a person chooses does not make man to choose what God had known beforehand. That would make God a participator in mankind’s sin. Isn’t that what the Calvinists believe? What possible outside influences, besides Satan’s temptation to eat of the forbidden fruit, was exerted on Adam and Eve’s will? None, zilch, nada, zero. How do I know? “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” (James 1:13).
The truth is that with God there is no such thing as knowing beforehand. He does not look into the future to know what is going to happen. IN fact, He knows everything instantly because He transcends time, space and matter. We, on the other hand, are confined to a sphere of time, space and matter and therefore have no other way to express God’s omniscience but from the perspective of “knowing beforehand.”
It’s easy to say that Dave Hunt’s research is flawed while your own refutation of Dave Hunt’s research is without substance because you don’t pinpoint the things in which you claim he is flawed. That’s unacceptable.
Thomas, thank you for the interaction. I loved the way you handled the Kobus van Rensburg saga. As you can guess we are at odds where soteriology is concerned. I do believe in election minus limited atonement but do not associate with Calvin. As far as I can see the scriptures teach it. I am consistent in my dispensationalism and my theology is mostly in line with Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
If you are giving someone the gospel can someone accept it though God knows that he will not. If the answer is yes then God is mistaken if the answer is no then that person does not have the free will you say election takes away from the individual.
Thomas I am not here to pick a fight. I just want to take the heat out of the issue. I believe that there are saved and unsaved people on either side of the argument. I have many libertarian friends who love the the Saviour as I do because we have trusted Jesus and His saving of sinners of who I certainly am one.
Your ignorance of Scripture and of the character and attributes of the God whom you claim to love and serve is beyond appalling. You who claim to be the exposer of false teachers and prophets are yourself one of those you seek to expose. The pure idiocy that Calvin is a tool of Rome really takes the cake, maybe your readers like their ears scratched and tickled, but no thanks. One day soon enough the reality of your foolishness will come crashing down on you, but it will likely be too late for repentance. Feel free to continue to stroke the idol of your “free will” as that will be your only consolation as you are told to “Depart from Me, I never knew you”.
Darrel,
Perhaps you should study Calvinism more thoroughly and then come back to apologize for your naive comment. For someone who is devoid of a free-will, you shurely know how to use your own free-will to the detriment of yourself.
Calvanism is not the question, but you have yet to figure that out. The real question is: will you make the Lord Jesus Christ a liar by insisting that some phantom free will had anything to do with the salvation of a soul.
“You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you”
“And as many has had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
“…who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
These and hundreds of other Scriptures have been redacted from you mind, and likely from the print version you so dearly love to ignore. I would suggest that you read Romans 9, but that would be a exercise in futility as it probably (obviously) has been ripped from the Bible you read.
Reasoning with someone such as yourself is virtually impossible since you have set your face like a stone to rebel against the God who created you and elevate yourself (and your “free will”) above and against the authority of the Sovereign Lord. Sounds all too familiar as the father of lies, the wicked one, the devil has done the same thing as recorded in Isaiah 14.
The blood of your disciples will be required of you soon enough because you have taught them the lie that by an act of their will they will be granted entrance into the Kingdom of God and eternal life. Yet no where in Scripture is such a claim validated, but you will teach it nonetheless.
“For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” May the Lord Jesus grant you the gift of repentance from the lies you teach.
Darrel
I suggest that you read and believe the Bible.
“You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you”
He also chose Judas Iscariot and look what happened to him.
He chose the entire nation of Israel and look what the Bible says about them.
“And as many has had been appointed to eternal life believed”
When did you believe – before your monergistic regeneration or after it? If you say you believed before your monergistic regeneration then you are a liar because Calvinists assert that no one can believe unto salvation.
James White wrote in his book “The Potter’s Freedom, p. 101, “The Reformed assertion is that man cannot understand and embrace the gospel nor respond in faith and repentance toward Christ without God first freeing him from sin and giving him spiritual life (regeneration).”
If you say you believed after your monergistic regeneration, then you are still a liar because then it is not you who believed unto salvation but God who forced it upon you. That’s not faith. The God of the Bible does not work that way. Satan does.
That’s not salvation. It is coercion, enforcement. Did you force your wife to love and marry you or did you allow her to use her God-given free-will to choose you to be her husband?. “Do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband?” “I do,” she must have said because you are married to her. Or did you clobber her over the head and dragged her to your home like they did in the stone-age?
One of the Calvinists’ favorite proof texts is Acts 13:48—“as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Vance says, “Every Calvinist, no matter what else he believes, uses this verse to prove Unconditional Election….” Nettleton claims it is “this verse that made him a Calvinist.” White devotes four pages to it. Palmer exults, “Here is another text with stunning clarity…. The stark simplicity of this text is astounding.” Certainly, “ordained to eternal life” is the translation of the Greek word tasso (in this case tetagmenoi) found in all major translations (as White points out). A number of paraphrases, however, give a decidedly non-Calvinistic rendering. The Living Bible puts it, “…as many as wanted eternal life, believed.” Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible says, “as many as had become disposed for life age-abiding….” The Nazarene Translation 2000 by Mark Heber Miller has, “…all those who believed were disposed to ageless Life.” Whatever the differing opinions of translators and commentators, this one verse cannot undo what hundreds of others establish.The Calvinist, to support his beliefs, assumes that tetagmenoi must mean “predestined to salvation.” Yet that is clearly not the meaning in any of the seven other usages of tasso in the New Testament. If that were the intent, why was tasso used and not prooridzo (predestinated)? In fact, Adam Clarke declares rather dogmatically, “Whatever tetagmenoi may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it includes no idea of preordination or predestination of any kind…. [O]f all the meanings ever put on
it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life; this is no meaning of the term and should never be applied to it.”
Nor does the context support the Calvinist rendering, as numerous commentaries declare. McGarvey comments that “the context has no allusion to anything like an appointment of one part, and a rejection of the other, but the writer draws a line of distinction between the conduct of certain Gentiles and
that of the Jews addressed by Paul…. Luke says, many of the Gentiles ‘were determined’ for verlasting life. It is an act of the mind to which Paul objects on the part of the Jews, and it is as clearly an act of mind in the Gentiles which Luke puts in contrast with it….”Several authorities trace the KJV’s “ordained” to the corrupt LatinVulgate, which, as T. E. Page points out, “has praeordinati, unfairly…”
Cook’s Commentary reads, “The A.V. [KJV] has followed the Vulgate.
Rather, [it should read] were…disposed for eternal life, as in…Josephus….” Likewise Dean Alford translated it, “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The Expositor’s Greek Testament says, “There is no countenance here for the absolutum decretum of the Calvinists.” 10
A. T. Robertson likewise says: “The word ordain is not the best translation here. ‘Appointed,’
as Hacket shows, is better…. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum…of personal salvation.”
Greek grammarians tell us that tetagemenoi, a nominative case, perfect tense, passive middle voice participle of tasso is used, indicating an influence upon the Gentiles toward eternal life and believing
the Gospel. That this is a present influence and, as Barnes says, “not . . . an eternal decree,” is generally agreed. It was at least in part Paul’s persuasive preaching—which would fit the immediate context and the entire book of Acts: Paul and Barnabas “so spake, that a great multitude…believed (Acts 14:1). “The verb . . . is middle…thus implies personal action…among those who had ranged themselves for eternal life.”
You wrote:
I have studied and read Romans 9 probably more than you have and have come to the conclusion that Calvinists distort it to their own destruction. Have you read Romans 11, and especially verse 28? It destroys Reformed Theology.
You wrote:
Have you put these words in the order you wrote them because God decreed you before the foundation of the world to write them as you’ve done OR did you do so of your own free choice and will. How dare you use your own free-will to castigate me and to accuse me of “elevating myself?” Hypocrite!
The foundation of all your Arminian phantom theology is pride. Pride that your have subjugated the will, authority, and sovereignty of the Lord Jesus Christ to man’s “free-will”. Your ability to choose (if only in your mind) is above that of the Creator and Sustainer of all there is. This is precisely the attitude, intent, and outcome of the rebellion of the father of lies in Isa. 14. If I need to tell you what the Lord God thinks of your pride, then you are in much more trouble than I imagined.
I can only imagine that you also teach your disciples that they may “loose their salvation” once acquired. Such is the continuing lie of your phantom Arminian faux-theology. Such thinking is rooted in narcissism, it is the “other gospel” Paul speaks of in Gal.1:6-9. and ends in the broad gate to hell.
May the Lord grant you the gift of repentance in this matter.
Darrel,
Your problem is you don’t believe what the Bible says. Goodbye.
Because God is God and because He is omniscience (apart from being omnipotent and omnipresent) He created and endowed man with the ability to chose to be choosen. This is only given to man as a free gift…animals and other creations don’t have this ability…God created them with instinctive abilities and perfect enviroments to survive.
Thomas’s explanation is sound and keeps to the Word…it is you who does not understand who God is and have limited Him to your interpretation and understanding.Thomas is spot on and Darrell you are wrong and believe a concept that from the deception of your own mind and that is pride.
You are the one that needs to repent.
…and to be choosen is so simple…it does not require works or an experience but simply to tell the truth and admit our inmperfections,faults,waywardness,rebellion and iniquities (commonly grouped as sin because pride probably the worse and most difficult to discern because it continually seeks to justify itself and it is invasive in all of us)started from the first man (couple)created. God in His mercy gave Adam only one instruction…do NOT eat from the tree of good and evil…that’s all but he still stumbled.
Today we have God’s intervention because the law was useless in justifying or earning our salvation but it was necessary becausing knowing it reveals sin or better still conviction of sin.
Conviction of sin occurs to everybody that was born of earth…it the work of the Holy Spirit…it is how we choose to remedy it that counts…only one way was Christ dying for our sins and accepting this individually…not in mass or collectively.
It has to very personal and align itself with God’s love letter, the completed and fulfilled Word, the bible, the scriptures…no theology or teaching or any other person can save from the consequences in eternity.
Debs…how do edit…a few spelling errors…once posted gone forever…lolz.
error, the law does not only reveal sin but the conviction that the Holy Spirit does…the Helper and I sincerely believe that the most primitive societies also are administered this…they might know Christ as He truly is but if they call out to the Creator(the true one…not a man like Budha or Mohammed… or whatever). He will reveal Christ…the true Christ and not the christ of the TV stations…that’s why missionaries went into the darkest spots. missionaries that were very ordinary but loved God and a huge feeling for the lost. The seeds were sown but the workers were few but by some unexplainable event those who truly sort beyond pride and self esteem will find Christ. I really believe this but the sad thing thing is because man listens to man, to preachers, to cults,witchdoctors,horoscopes, newspapers, magazines,politicians,celebrities, religions, Calvinists,Word Faith, TBN preachers, Angus Buchan and virtually everything else is because he rejects the conviction that the Holy Spirit.
All these things are found in the bible and they are fartoo numerous to mentions…not the names given to various individuals but the types and tendancies of sinful mankind.
error…they might NOT know Christ
…and to explain what I mean because I did make a few mistakes…is a change of heart and by heart it’s not what Uncle Chris Barnard operated on…by heart, I mean your whole being…the most difficult for the well endowed in fame and ability to forfeit.
Having said says…I read a lot of history especially about people that have reached the highest accolades or priviledge or power.
I’m not an admirer of mankind only the Lord Jesus Christ but something of an element of truth disturbed me in a way but was quite revealing…Queen Victoria with all her sins and political blunders and successes in terms of man’s ability to judge (and this is very private because none or really no-one knew heart or her position with God) said: “when I see my Saviour when it’s time to depart, I will humbly fall before Him and cast my crown before His feet” these are her exact words but this is what I surmised she meant.
How dignatories have changed.
But it shows you that Christ, the true Christ came for all…even Queens and Kings, beggars, poor people and criminals…all those that truly submitted to Him confessing their sins. It really is simple.
Thank you Lord.
Sorry… I’m hogging this thread or topic but what I’m trying to say is that I’m not attacking the individual and what he has chosen to believe. Deb’s has not all the answers and I certainly don’t follow her and I believe she does not want this…neither does Thomas. What we personally believe has only one measure…the written Word of God…if we stick to that we stick to the rails.
We can have our opinions in how we interpret them but this requires correction…CORRECTION is hated by man’s sinful tendancies…if you don’t believe this see how Benny Hinn reacts to challenges of integrity and I’m sorry Benny if I have singled you out…their are countless others…too many names…not only your prosperity gospel (this is confusing because you attack weaker elements of this false gospel, like Joel Osteen etc.
But this is useless because you are both off-line.
And then the Calvinists…that attack you and John Mac Arthur who is well studied in theology and is sound in fundamentals but distorted because he is a theologian that is influenced by Calvin.
Yes a lot of his teachings are sound on the fringes but the heart…the predestination issue contradicts God’s integrity…God’s love is insurmountable but at the same token not compromised.
As an intelligent man and a well read scholar of the bible you have allowed Calvin to infect the real truth.
I had met a lot of genuine re-born Christians that have been infected by Calvin’s theology. I will not mention names because I love and respect them and perhaps I should but there again I cannot because they have studied the bible academically and collectively under doctrinal obligations.
Jesus calls us apart and challenges to those things that bind us…even good things like wife, children, parents and societies obligations…he never said they were not important , only priorities…for He is the Giver off all things.
Darrel wrote:
Hello Daryl, im confused by the whole of what you just said ( and Ive read a bit about calvinism, that we are chosen and cannot chose with our free will to be saved) But I have a few thoughts. One is this, if we cannot chose, then why does God say in the old Testament, “Chose this day whom you will follow” and then go on to tell people that they can follow Him or follow what is evil, but essentially the choice is theirs. Also, if we are ‘elected’with no choice of our own, then why does Jesus and John the Baptist go around telling everyone to Repent. It would seem that some respond and repent and some ignore this and don’t repent. So the response comes from individual people. If Jesus knew we would be drawn and led by the Spirit then why would He give us instructions to prepare us, knowing that some would obey and some would not?
And why are we given the ten commandments, which we have the choice to obey or not obey ? When jesus separates the sheep from the goats He bases is decision of who goes to the right and left on how they have behaved, whether they have visited the poor in prison, fed and clothed the poor and basically if people have shown love to those who are small and unnoticed generally. Love manifested in our behaviour is important in how the Lord Jesus judges us. But if He, the Lord had predetermined our behaviour and we had no choice in this it would be silly to judge us in something about which we had no personal choice. The judgement here is Not based on previous election but on how we have behaved, even though we did not know it prior to this event, for the people said to Him… Lord, WHEN did we see you and feed you ? And Jesus answered “What you did for the least of my brothers you did for me”…. so it seems from this passage that how we behave ( which is our choice) is very important in how the Lord sees us.
The whole of the bible seems to be very concerened with how we behave and whether we manifest love in our actions and behaviour or not. We are told to pray for our enemies, forgive our enemies, give to the poor, leave grain in the corner of our fields for the foreigner ( provision for the needy) and show kindness to orphans and widows. We are asked by the Lord to give and share and be cheerful in our giving. We are even told in the OT somewhere not to muzzle the ox when it is treading grain ( in other words show kindess to the animal and let it eat when it is weak and working) Our hearts are of tantamount importance to the Lord ad we are told that without Love we are clanging cymbals, we are told to wash one anothers feet and take on an attitude of serving. We are told to be greek to the greeks and roman to the romans in order that we may win some for Christ. We are asked to give thanks at all times. Jesus told us to love God with all our being and also He gives us a new commandment to love our neighbour as ourself. Its so clear that our behaviour and inner heart attitude ( which we can affect by doing as He tells us) is of great importance to how God sees us. If we obey Him we please Him. But to obey means to HEAR and then choose to follow.
Everything that Jesus taught was put out with a choice- we could respond – or not! Things with Jesus END with salvation and standing before Him before the Throne of Judgement, but the begin long before that. Jesus’ judgement is about how we behaved to our neighbour, about how we forgave our enemies and friends, about how we loved and cared for those we knew, about whether we were good samaritans, loving all or just loving a few. Jesus’ judgement of is is based on whether we judged others or not, spoke unkind words or not, took up or crosses and followed Him- or not and whether we stole, lied, loved God, trusted Him and whether we walked in the light and acknowledged Him before men or not. Jesus’ judement is on how we lived and believed and followed Him… its to do with intricate, tiny attitudes of our heart, its do do with freedom and how we used what we were given ( did we use our talents or bury them ?) did we doubt or encourage others and did we seek the humblest place or love to be seen ? God judges the whole of our lives, hundred and hundres of tiny actions and attitudes of our hearts….Why ? Because these things, our attitudes MATTER to God… and the whole bible is Full of His expression that He cares about How we act and behave. If this were not so then why would He have the bible be FULL of instructions about how we should live, behave, give, obey and treat whole categories of people? If God didnt care whey would HE tell us to love and forgive our enemies ? And if He intended to ”switch” us or control us Himself why would He devote so much time in the bible to telling us OW we should behave ? Why would he leave the choice with us “Chose this day whom you will follow” if in fact the choice were NOT ours ? God send prophets to call to people, hoping they will chose Him… why ? Because God wants us to choose Him, so that He can choose us! But He cant choose us if we won’t choose Him. WHY ? Because our behaviour matters to God and he wants us to repent, to humble ourselves to follow Him. Tne whole bible is just FULL of instruction for how we are to behave and He asks us to respond…
To the person who wrote the articles on Calvin “Thank you for such a great article.” My hubby and I have read it are busy studying it for ourselves, We have a questions relating to their salvation but we have asked the Lord to show us and teach us as we understand the hour we are in and many wolves have crept in, but our head says surely not John but the word says yes, surely John. We have respected him as a greta teacher so it hard for us to say what we suspect. Its even harder to think that so many may very well be deceived with the doctrine of Calvin. It is almost as if the church had no hope to survive this world but Jesus said The gates of Hell will not prevail. Thankfully. Thank you for a well written article.