Jacob Prasch – But By The Grace of God [those Calvinists] . . . Tell The Truth!
NEW: PLEASE READ THE ADDENDUM AT THE END OF THIS ARTICLE
I only recently came across an article written by James Jacob Prasch which he called “What Are We Left With?.” I must say I wholeheartedly agree with him on everything he said in the greater part of his article, at least until a I read the very last paragraph.
Jacob Prasch says;
“May God Bless Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland, Tony Peace, David Hocking, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Warren Smith, Ray Yungen, Chuck Smith, Jack Hibbs, Bill Randles, Philip Powell, Mike Gendron, David Wilkerson, Ray Comfort, Justin Peters,Paul Washer , John MacArthur, Stuart Dool, Doug Harris, John Higgins, Joseph Fara, Bob De Waay and the other servants of the One True God who labor to uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel in this age of apostasy and decline. None of these men are perfect or without flaw, nor above all either am I. But by the grace of God all of them tell the truth.“ (Emphasis added).
[DTW note: Justin Peters, Bob De Waay, Paul Washer and John MacArthur are all Calvinists that speak the truth according to Jacob Prasch]
Jacob Prasch and his favourites
It’s obvious that Dave Hunt is one of Prasch’s favorite writers and speakers, mentioning him first in a list of very illustrious and knowledgeable authors and preachers. I couldn’t agree more. Dave Hunt, in my opinion, is a gift of God to the church in these last days who like Paul of Tarsus “ceases not to warn every one night and day with tears” (Acts 20:31). However, I was shocked to see the names of Justin Peters, Bob De Waay, Paul Washer and John MacArthur in his list of men who “but by the grace of God . . . tell the truth” and “uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel.” Both these gentlemen, as Prasch himself knows, are staunch Calvinists whose doctrines of grace (as they call it) Dave Hunt rebukes and refutes as being a gross misrepresentation of God in his book “What Love Is This?” In the introduction “Why this Book?” Hunt writes:
Most shocking of all, however, is Calvinism’s misrepresentation of God who “is love.”
If God is the essence of love, which of course He is, then the slightest misrepresentation of his love cannot possibly be called the truth. Both gentlemen, Paul Washer, and John MacArthur believe that Jesus did not die for everyone. Paul Washer is a wee bit more subtle in his approach to this particular “truth” and never says outrightly “Jesus did not die for everyone” but cunningly says in many of his videos on YouTube: “Jesus died the death OF HIS PEOPLE.” Who are his people? Well, of course, the elect only are God’s people. This is the kind of blasphemy John MacArthur and many other Calvinists spew out on their congregants and on the internet.
And James Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries says of these men (Paul Washer and John MacArthur): “but by the grace of God [they]. . . tell the truth.” Is it true that Jesus Christ was crucified only for his people (a select few chosen ones)? If it is true, it must be from God. If not, then it is a lie and all lies emanate from the father of all lies, Satan himself. Calvinism is arguably one of the most dangerous doctrines on our planet. Everything they say about the doctrines of sanctification and living a life of holiness and absolute obedience to God is commendable but as soon as it comes to the very core of God’s will for all men, the salvation of their souls, they have it sorely wrong which borders dangerously on blasphemy.
Addendum:
In a Youtube video I watched today[1], Jacob Prasch says that if you do not put on the belt of truth around your waste and continue to wear it day and night, you cannot claim to have the breastplate of righteousness covering your heart. As soon as you take off the belt of Truth, the breastplate of righteousness automatically falls to the ground. I happen to agree with him one hundred percent.
Having said that, we cannot in the very least assume that Calvinists, whom Jacob Prasch hails as men who “tell the Truth,” have put on the breastplate of righteousness. It is impossible to say they have been endowed with the breastplate of righteousness when they proclaim the following hideous and satanic lies:
- “Why did God not choose to love everyone like that (savingly)? I’ll give you a good guess, and maybe not a guess. The reason God did not choose to love everyone savingly, is because the love of God is qualified and controlled by His glory.” (John MacArthur)
- “God hates sinners.” (Paul Washer). [Thomas: When God loves He only loves the elect according to the Calvinistic John 3:16 but when He hates, He does not only hate the Calvinistic sinners but ALL sinners. Calvinists just love to chop and change their interpretation of the meaning of “all,” “world” and “whosoever” whenever and however they like].
Jacob, are these guys telling the Truth? If they are, then you have every right to proclaim that they are endowed with both the belt of Truth and the breastplate of righteousness. If not, then you cannot possibly say that they are wearing the breastplate of righteousness. Wouldn’t you agree that they (Justin Peters, Bob De Waay, Paul Washer and John MacArthur) are going to end up in Babylon as well? Don’t you think you should apologize in public to God and the Body of Christ that you were wrong in saying” . . . by the grace of God, all of them tell the truth?“ If you do, I will be the first person to say in public that you are truly a man of God who wears both the belt of truth and the breastplate of righteousness to the honor and glory of God.
[1]
One ought also to be shocked at the listing of Jesuits, CNPers and the members of the “network” “wolf pack” mentioned in the “Jacob says ‘God bless…” paragraph referenced above. ALWAYS take note of a group and those who are included. Many of them have not been “exposed” as false teachers or “wolves in sheep’s clothing”…however…take note…of the “companions and respected ones” referenced by a “wolf” himself! Where you find one “wolf” you will find others…ALL OF THEM. Remember…”wolves” travel in “packs.” Mark them and flee. (Or..you can use their credible information…since – they MUST have credible truth, in order to be perceived as a credible teacher – in which to mix in their leaven. BUT…get your doctrine and feed your faith in the Bible)
AND as much as I have loved Dave Hunt myself, and gleaned much useful INFORMATION…take heed…
(use of any link is not any endorsement of any person, group, “ministry” or philosophy – information only)
http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/hunt.htm
(there’s more…use the search engine)
There is a big difference between Dave Hunt’s teachings and those of any Calvinist.
When I first came over Calvinist teachings I found them shocking and depressing. I found it hard to believe God, Who identifies Himself as the God of Love and does not will that anyone should perish, has created and destined most people to an eternity of hell and a minority to live forever with Him in heaven. And, to make matters worse, the great majority that He has destined to an eternity in hell are neither better nor worse than those who are in heaven.
Could there ever be a worse calumny against God? If this is not blasphemy then what is?
And yet, when those who make those blasphemous statements against God are challenged by others from Scriptures, they blatantly twist the Scriptures (to their own destruction [2 Pet 3:16]) to back their maligning of God’s Holy and loving character.
I have read much of Dave Hunt’s writings on Calvin and Calvinism. His book What Love Is This? is the definitive work on Calvinism. In it he has literally left no stone unturned. And even then the Calvinists attack him with ad hominem, straw men and circular argumentation. But they have no option because Dave Hunt beats them hands down with logic as he does with Scripture.
In no way are Dave Hunt’s beliefs remotely similar to Calvinism.
There again, I cannot see how any Calvinist can tell the truth and uphold God’s eternal truth and proclaim the true Gospel. So I cannot see how Jacob Prasch can hold Dave Hunt and Calvinists in the same esteem when their teachings are in conclict. Perhaps Mr Prasch does not see where their beliefs so blatantly contradict each other.
I’m not surprised at all. Unfortunately, on Hunt’s site, someone is recommending some of the Calvinist’s too. Don’t know if they have been infiltrated, or what is going on, but they seem to think it’s o.k. to refer to “some” of their writings… Compromise to me. Btw, how do I email you? I tried and it came back. Would someone shoot me an email please? thank you.
@Marion,
I read the links you posted about Hunt.
What else can we say? Who then is sound today?
People are not always what they appear to be…
I started questioning myself about Hunt since I wrote TBC inquiring about their support of, endorsement of and selling of A. W. Tozer books, more importantly without any warning. Tozer, himself a mystic, is a bridge to the who is who of Roman Catholic Mystics. He endorses and promotes lectio divina.
TBC brushed my concerns aside.Then I thought well Dave Hunt must be too old today, and he does not necessarily know or approve what his staff is doing.
Also, I started reading his book “Judgement Day” and all along kept asking myself: Is this author a Dominionist? The book seemed very odd to me from the perspective of someone who is “not of the world”, “stranger and pilgrim on earth”. Finally I just tossed it aside as it was a distraction to me. It seemed to me something could be wrong with the author of this book. It did not fit in the scheme of the faith once delivered to the saints.
Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme
Re: Dave Hunt
I have followed The Berean Call for many years and have found Dave to be a valiant defender of the truth. But I have noted slippage after he has left the scene due to advanced age. I no longer consider it a solid discernment source because of the mixture of truth and error. I am disappointed in T.A. McMahon as I thought he would carry on and fill Dave’s footsteps.
There is still much useful material to be found there, but one needs to use discernment and caution. As much as it pains me, I can no longer recommend TBC. Dave was always under unjustifiable fire for his stand against Calvinism and also his dispensational theology. I think Dave would be most saddened to see the compromise creeping in today.
John E
>> Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme
Do you have proof of this? Linking to Jacob Boehme does not give evidence of Dave Hunt agreeing with the man. Gimme proof.
John E
>> Paul…there are wolves on all sides of every issue. So, although Dave Hunt is no Calvinist…there are serious doctrinal issues with Dave Hunt as well, especially related to Jacob Boehme and William Law. Who else goes there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme
Do you have proof of this? Linking to Jacob Boehme on wikipedia does not give evidence of Dave Hunt agreeing with the man. Gimme proof.
If you read the links in comment 1 as I did, and examine for yourself, you will find it, along with other problems related to Dave in doctrine and ecumenism (even though he spoke and wrote against it – double-mindedness = an “unstable man” Book of James). These include a non-cessationist view of Scripture along with other beliefs of his Plymouth Brethren orthodoxy (pentacostal, with tongues, etc.). He does not believe in a literal hell. Dave Hunt edited William Law’s (disciple of Boehme) book, “The Power of the Spirit.” You can go to this site for a look inside the book and read the introduction here http://www.amazon.com/Power-Spirit-William-Law/dp/0875088228#reader_B008B93QEE
Quotation from http://www.seekgod.ca/cosmic.htm:
>>It is very odd that we find occult and New Age expert, Dave Hunt of The Berean Call, promoting William Law’s book [an occultic and New Ager and disciple of Bohme], Power in the Spirit. Amidst controversy over writing the Introduction for it, Mr. Hunt took the stand that there were good things in the book. That would be so, when one includes the Word of God in anything. The Word of God is not bound by the intentions for it’s use.
Hunt not only wrote the introduction of the book, but he re-edited it to spread the blight.
This is UNBELIEVABLE!
If Hunt is not a wolf, I don’t who is.
Martin you have summed it up pretty well. When we have been duped by false and lying doctrines and come out of it…it is because of His grace. The underlying problem is the human tenancy (sin induced) to put our fellow man on a pedestal which is idolatory. We must realise that all are contaminated except one being the chosen one…the Christ.
When we at last see this then the scales start falling off our eyes.
People rant and rave about manifest sin and in some context so they should but where Satan snookers most christians is in the sins of pride and self…hidden sins of disposition and the heart. Only the 2 edged sword can operate on this.
John E. can we assume that you do not subscribe to depensational theology since you took a swipe at Plymouth brethren?
You are absolutely 100% WRONG – Dave Hunt does believe in a literal hell.
Amazing how you have tried to morph this thread into an inquisition of Dave Hunt. I have followed Dave for probably 20 + years, read his books including those exposing Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, perused his articles, heard him speak in person and have spoke with him in person. He was not perfect and he would be the first to admit it. He is a very humble servant of the Lord who has basically finished his course and His works continue to edify and bless.
Re: Dave Hunt, I was blessed by Mr. Hunts books, some which I do have till this day. I have admired him for years and subscribed to the Berean Call newsletter. But I’m dead set against his Arminian belief method, it’s not correct doctrine of Grace. One is called to be a believer. One does NOT have Free Will. Another point that disturbed me for years was his continual fellow-shipping with the Apostate Chuck Smith, and Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith has never been truly born again, he has supported and fed to the church major deceivers of truth, such as Ronnie Frisbie, John Wimber, they are ecumenical and support Rick Warren. Also Mr. Hunt back in 1998 has also supported Gematria, other wise known as “the Bible Code” which is rooted in Kabbala, which is of the occult. I now mark Mr. David Hunt as a false spiritual leader. ALL of the men listed by Prasch are liars, false teachers, and apostate, none are to be followed or supported.
Cal please clarify yourself here, are YOU stating this or is this the false doctrine?
Quote: “…it’s not correct doctrine of Grace. One is called to be a believer. One does NOT have Free Will. Another point that disturbed me for years”
Of course we have been GIVEN free will, the ability TO CHOSE.
We have NOT BEEN CREATED HUMAN AUTOMATONS !
When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER! I GET speaking out against false teachers, BUT TRUE false teachers that are leading people away, like Rick Warren, Rob Bell, Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson etc. should be the MAIN focus! What YOU are doing is being down right critical in the most negative form possible! I DID see on here you affiliating Prasch with Katrine Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee, you ARE a slanderer, but of course, like the coward that you, you will delete this comment. Sadly, if you are gonna be bold enough to post stuff on the net, you should be bold enough to take the heat, a person with some sort of bravery faces up to their words, especially someone as confident as you in claiming Prasch is such a false teacher, then face up to it when someone challenges you. You have a very slanderous spirit, you do, you and your fellow supporters and fellow bashers as well. God help you people!
Leigh
>> When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER!
You label the Calvinist Christian, the Bible does not label them Christians. At that point in time in the FEMA van, a person who is following false doctrine is just as accountable to God as they were before they were in the van.
>> What YOU are doing is being down right critical in the most negative form possible! I DID see on here you affiliating Prasch with Katrine Kuhlman and Lonnie Frisbee, you ARE a slanderer, but of course, like the coward that you, you will delete this comment.
No one here affiliated Prasch to Kathyrn Kulman or Lonnie Frisbee WE ONLY ASSOCIATE HIM TO CHUCK SMITH who is associated to Lonnie Frisee and Kathryn Kuhlman. You make up lies and then call it slander! Oh please.
No I won’t delete this comment, because I want people to what lovely followers Jacob Prasch has. Full of love – not.
>> Sadly, if you are gonna be bold enough to post stuff on the net, you should be bold enough to take the heat
Really? Are you my judge, jury and executioner?
>> Prasch is such a false teacher, then face up to it when someone challenges you.
I will face any anyone who will NOT LIE and speak about doctrine instead of name call and attack me personally.
>> you have a very slanderous spirit, you do, you and your fellow supporters and fellow bashers as well. God help you people!
No. But your god is Jacob Prasch.
@ Deborah (Discerning the World):
My God is NOT Prasch, you are OUT OF LINE to say so, because I am calling out error that constitutes me as worshipping Prasch!!?? You INDEED are crazy! I do not agree with Calvinist doctrine myself, but I, NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell, you really are TRULY judgmental is the worst possible way! God Help you!
Leigh
>> My God is NOT Prasch, you are OUT OF LINE to say so, because I am calling out error that constitutes me as worshipping Prasch!!?? You INDEED are crazy! I do not agree with Calvinist doctrine myself, but I, NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell, you really are TRULY judgmental is the worst possible way! God Help you!
You are not calling out error, you are making silly statements that Jacob Prasch would make. You do agree with Calvinism, you just said so, I repeat what you said it an earlier comment..”When the persecuters come, and the Christians are all hauled up and in the FEMA vans getting hauled away, and someone asks another in the van “hey are you a Christian” and the other says “yeah”, “I realllllly doubt the focus is gonna be on whether they are a calvinst” or arminian or a midrash person or cessationist or WHATEVER!”
Here you have just stated that “Calvinists are Christians”.
And then you said in this comment, “NOR YOU, have the right to say that they are going to Hell”.
But you say you DON’T agree with Calvinism…errr… which is it Leigh? Confused? Make up your mind Leigh, pick a side of the fence and stay there. It is clear you don’t understand the doctrine of Calvinism hence you are making such wild to and fro claims.
Leigh, how would you like it if you suffered from a debilitating and painful disease and someone said your were demon-possessed? Jacob Prasch called Deborah and others here the most horrible, dispicable names. No one did that to Mr. Prasch, just questioned his teachings. No one got personal about it. No one slandered him.
You are not even being rational. You are all over the place. Apparently you follow Mr. Prasch’s faulty eschatology since you are concerned about FEMA camps and such. What you should be concerned about is the TRUTH. Calvinism is a lie and you, like Mr. Prasch give it a pass.
If you would calm down and actually read the articles, (there is an excellent one on Midrash by Martin Horan) and keep an open mind and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you, you might learn something. This website is not your enemy, I wish you would realize that. It is not Jacob Prasch’s enemy either. Strange that when one questions a prominent teacher all of a sudden one becomes an enemy and the object of hatred.
God hates sin and those who keep sinning. The wrath of God is upon those who leave in sin. People leaving in sin are those not appreciating God’s love and therefore they chose to be hated by God. Christ died and raised for everyone, but He is not saving those chose not to be saved, those that are happily continue leaving in sin. God loves Essau and hate Jacob for certain reason that He the only one sees what in them. It is clear that God knows a person that we cannot comprehend because our sight are limited. Yes, Jesus died for sinners, to convert and change them into His likeness. He did die for all sinners but not to the extend that they can continue sinning. Those that are chosen to be saved are people that defend their given salvation by leaving all the past sin and transgression, fighting against their sinful nature. They know that they’ve been called to live holy according to Christ’s teaching, and they believe that if they follow His commandment they will have victory over sin. Then, by this, the chosen means those who accept Christ teaching and become a true follower by practicing His commandment. If we love Him, we should do what He asked us to do. God is loving but hate sin and those who purposely keep sinning.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum (http://ariel.org/qna/qcalvinism.htm?iframe=true&width=800&height=500) and Mike Gendron ) are also Calvinists.
I know of no other topic that has divided Southern Baptist Churches in America than this false teaching called Calvinism or Sovereign Grace. I had a good friend try to get me flustered when he asked me when was I going to believe in the Sovereignty of God. He was truly just joking. My best friend was seated to the right of me as we were eating breakfast in a restaurant. She said, oh no, don’t get her started! I looked up and told my first friend (a Baptist Preacher and his wife) that I believe that God is Sovereign and that God was not intimidated one bit that I have “free will” because that’s something everyone has been given by God. I was not offended at all because we were all sort of joking around and he meant it just to tease me.
It seems that the Calvinists do not understand the meaning of the words ALL, WORLD AND WHOSOEVER. The God I love and worship, whose name is I AM is love. He is not willing for anyone to end up in hell. My friend says that if there are people in hell that Jesus loves then his death on the cross was powerless. No, No, No…rather those who refuse Jesus Christ will be without excuse when they stand before God in judgment. My God (I AM) doesn’t choose some to go to hell simply for being born.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Sharon
Yay, you are back, I am very happy 🙂
gmf.. when I am back I get a hey. When Sharon comes back she gets a Yay!?
Wb Sharon
David… you mean God Hated Esau and loved Jacob.:-)
YAY ROBBIE! But if I remember correctly I think you got a hug sometime recently ;P
I am happy Sharon is back, she is a wise lady, just like yourself, except you are not a lady.
Thank you very much.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
Hey Deborah…wonder how your critics will feel when their Mansion in heaven is right next door to you! :o) Why oh why must your critics act so ungodly? If they’re Calvinists I understand their Phariseeism. After all, they’re the Elect so they must be justified in attacking us when we call out the false teachings called Calvinism & Arminianism. What happened to the days when people confessed Jesus and believed what the Bible said? I will never, ever accept the beliefs of man other than the God-Man Christ Jesus. One thing about most Calvinists is when they find out we aren’t one then they automatically label us as Arminians. Nope, not me. Here’s what Job had to say about titles or labels…he was very wise.
Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
Job 32:22 For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
Stand firm Deborah. These critics are like mosquitos. One day we may all be called on to either stand for Jesus or die. The pesky mosquitos are an annoyance that makes us stronger for the trials ahead.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
LOL…you made me laugh about him not being a lady.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
From your writing here I guess you believe you are perfect. There are two types of people on this planet called Earth. Lost sinners and Saved Sinners. What a lot of Christians either don’t know because they haven’t been taught correctly is that when we received Jesus Christ as Savior ALL of our sins are forgiven. ALL means all of our past sins, present sins and future sins. So the wrath of God doesn’t fall on us because when He sees, He sees His son. Now with that said…does our liberty in Christ give us license to live in sin? No. Paul made that clear here Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal_5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. re: David, I hate when I sin. The Holy Spirit lets me know when I have done wrong. Even though my sin was forgiven when I received Jesus by faith our confession of sin keeps the fellowship with Him uncluttered. When I am chastised for something I did, I do not complain because He did it because He loves me. Praise God for the Liberty we have in Jesus Christ.
David wrote:
I may have posted this before. So if I did…please forgive. Here are the Statements of Salvation for Augustine & John Calvin.
Professions of Faith by Famous/Infamous People
Augustine’s Conversion
Augustine’s conversion, like many other important historical events, did not happen all at once or as the result of a single event. Rather, Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was the result of several major life events. Specifically, there were five stages to his conversion, along with another pushing ongoing factor. The five major stages were 1) the reading of Hortensius by Cicero; 2) his rejection of Manichaeanism; 3) his meeting with St. Ambrose; 4) his reading of Neoplatonist works; and 5) Augustine’s vision. All of these stages were also accented by the ongoing factor of Augustine’s mother’s influence as a pious Christian. It is important to note that Augustine’s conversion to Christianity was not the just the result of events in his later life. His Christian influences began upon his birth to his Catholic mother. “And I was signed with the sign of His Cross and seasoned with his salt as I came new from the womb of my mother, who had great trust in You.” (pg.11) Though his father was a pagan, he did little to nothing to influence his son away from the teachings of Christianity.
The Visions of Augustine & His Mother, Monica
In the first vision, this idea is an “instant of awe” where Augustine recognizes God. (Page 151) This instant has not been longed for or desired. However, in the second vision, the chain of thought leads to a “touching” of the eternal Wisdom, which is the purpose of the ascent. The success of Augustine and Monica in the second vision lies in the power of their hearts, or their faith (Page 197), where the fault of Augustine in the first vision lies in the weakness of his will and soul. (Page 151) It is also interesting to note that in the first vision he sees the general God, where in the second vision Monica and Augustine see the specific qualities of God. From this, the reader may conclude that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God.
This is supported by the idea that divine knowledge is more reliable than human knowledge. The period of Augustine’s life in which these visions took place is significant in his development of faith. The first vision is in the beginning of Augustine’s conversion to Christianity. (Book 7, Pages 133-156) Because of his lack of faith (and therefore a lack of knowledge acquired by faith), he cannot be close to God and must rely on sight (or reason) to know Him. (Page 151).
This is the opposite of the second vision, where Augustine and Monica have completed their conversion and are able to touch (or experience) God. (Page 151) This reiterates the idea that enhanced faith leads to a more complete knowledge of God. As Monica and Augustine are not eternal, as the vision is, their vision can only last for a short period. Augustine “recoils” from his first vision due to a weakness in his faith, his will, and his intellect. (Page 152) Nothing of the vision remains but its memory, which makes him long for the love and acceptance of God, and helps his faith grow. (Page 152) The significant change in the strength of Augustine’s will and intellect are seen in his fall from the second vision.
(Please note that things written here in parenthesis are comments from me.
Is it just me that cannot see the name of Jesus Christ in this small sample of his writings? There are no words of repentance along with no words of receiving Jesus Christ as his Savior. There seems to be no brokenness over sin, only his “recognition of God in his mind.” There is another person in this list that we later will see basically says the same thing some 500 years later and considered himself to be just like Augustine. If Augustine wrote it then this man believed it based only on Augustine’s writings).
The Two Different Statements of the Conversion of John Calvin
During the autumn of 1533 Calvin experienced a religious conversion. In his later life, John Calvin wrote two different accounts of his conversion that differ in significant ways. In the first account he portrays his conversion as a sudden change of mind, brought about by God. This account can be found in his Commentary on the Book of Psalms:
1.God by a sudden conversion subdued and brought my mind to a teachable frame, which was more hardened in such matters than might have been expected from one at my early period of life. Having thus received some taste and knowledge of true godliness, I was immediately inflamed with so intense a desire to make progress therein, that although I did not altogether leave off other studies, yet I pursued them with less ardor.
As with Augustine there is no mention of Jesus Christ. No mention of repentance or sorrow over sin.
2. In his second account he speaks of a long process of inner turmoil, followed by spiritual and psychological anguish. Being exceedingly alarmed at the misery into which I had fallen, and much more at that which threatened me in view of eternal death, I, duty bound, made it my first business to betake myself to your way, condemning my past life, not without groans and tears. And now, O Lord, what remains to a wretch like me, but instead of defense, earnestly to supplicate you not to judge that fearful abandonment of your Word according to its deserts, from which in your wondrous goodness you have at last delivered me.
Here also there is no mention of Jesus Christ. No repentance of sin just his groaning over it.
Scholars have argued about the precise interpretation of these accounts, but it is agreed that his conversion corresponded with his break from the Roman Catholic Church. The Calvin biographer, Bruce Gordon, has stressed that “the two accounts are not antithetical, revealing some inconsistency in Calvin’s memory, but rather are two different ways of expressing the same reality.
I would never be so bold to say that they definitely are not saved. But I do see some very wicked “fruit.”