Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 5)
Please read Parts 1, 2, 3 and 4 before reading part 5
Continue to refrain from sin
LOUIS: Continue to refrain from sin
The believer must practice righteousness if he is to remain a child of God. “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in it?…Do you not know that to whom you present yourself slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience to righteousness?…” (Romans 6:1, 15-16, 21, 23). This passage treats sinning not as an accident but as an act of self-surrender. It says that if we yield ourselves to sin, it will bring death; they will again be the servants of sin, which will end in eternal death (Romans 6:16, 21, 23a; James 5:20).
TOM: Here again we may ask: To what degree should the saints not sin (practice righteousness) in order to maintain their salvation – 60%, 75%, 90% or 100%? God is only satisfied with a 100% performance and anyone who claims to have such a wonderful track record has no need of a Saviour. They do not need Jesus Christ. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Am I encouraging Christians to sin? Absolutely not. We should hate sin as much as God hates it. Nonetheless, the bible never says that a saint should practice righteousness. A saint’s righteousness is a Person, not a deed that I do, and this Person wants to live his righteous life in and through each and every one of his saints. (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; Galatians 2:20). If I, as Paul says, no longer live, how can I practice righteousness? In fact, when I live and strive to practice righteousness it is then when I fall into all kinds of unrighteousness. Paul describes this dilemma in a saint’s life in Romans 7.
For the good that I would, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (Romans 7:19)
You can’t miss noticing the many
I’s in this verse. It is full of “I’s” and no Jesus. That’s what happens when the “I” gets in the way.
Romans 6:1, 15-16, 21, 23 is not an instruction on how a saint ought to retain or preserve his/her salvation. We must read it in context with what Paul said in Romans 5:
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:19-21).
Paul says here: It doesn’t matter how big the sin may be, God’s grace exceeds in magnitude that very sin.
So, as you can see have I received more grace than you and Mr. X (Not really). Some started to believe: “OK if God’s grace is always much greater than our sins, why shouldn’t we just go on sinning more so that God’s grace may abound and grow even greater?” Paul then answers: “How can a dead person sin? Don’t you realize that everyone who has been baptized into Christ’s death no longer has the desire to sin?
You should therefore daily reckon (reason) that you have died with Christ and that you are indeed dead to sin (your sinful nature which is the manufacturing foundation of all your sins).” Take note, he doesn’t say that a saint ceases to sin altogether (1 John 1:8). He says “live any longer therein?” The reckoning (reasoning) of your demise to sin (old Adam nature) is a daily process and will continue until the saint leaves his earthly tent to be with his Lord.
The passage you quoted is therefore not a warning that a saint may lose his/her salvation but a reminder that victory over sin is no option for the child of God. Victory is a certainty when he/she identifies him/herself with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul says it is our reasonable service (religion) to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God. In the Old Testament, the sacrificial animals were killed. They were dead sacrifices. All believers have already been slain (killed) in Christ when He was slain on the cross, not to remain dead but to live in the reality of the new life we’ve received in and through Jesus Christ when He was raised from the dead and we together with him.
There can be no resurrection life without death and burial and this all becomes saints inheritance the moment he or she puts their faith in Jesus Christ for their eternal redemption. This is another reason why a saint cannot lose his salvation. The death, burial, and resurrection a saint inherits the moment he is saved cannot be reversed, just as much as Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection can be reversed.
The very notion that a saint must strive not to sin in order to retain his/her salvation places an immense heavy burden on the saint. This is precisely what happened to Paul when he wrote:
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin (old Adam nature) that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:14-25).
It is interesting to note that Paul knew exactly how to be victorious over sin, already in chapter 6, but it took him some time (in chapter 7) to understand the meaning of being buried in Christ’s death experientially. God often allows his children to fall into sin so that they may realize that there is absolutely nothing they can do to “continue to refrain from sin” and thus retain or preserve their salvation. Any effort to “continue to refrain from sin” is in itself a sin. Paul proved that his own efforts was to no avail and that the more he tried to “continue to refrain from sin” it made him to sin even more.
The only antidote for sin (the Adam nature and production house of all our sins) is to reckon (reason by faith) that you are indeed dead to sin by virtue of your burial in Christ’s death. Only then can the saint be resurrected into a dynamic new life with Christ. “I am (continuous present tense. Not was) crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20). If Christ Himself lives in the saint, how can he lose his salvation? The only way a saint can lose his salvation is when Christ Himself abandons the saint, move out of him and never return again. Should this ever be possible Jesus would have been a liar because He promised that his sheep would never perish (John 10:27-29) and that He woud never forsake or leave them (Hebrews 13:5).
Warnings in the book of Revelation
LOUIS: Warnings in the book of Revelation
“But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations…” (Revelation 2:25-26; 2:7, 11, 17, 25, 3:5, 11-12, 21). The verbs “hold fast”, “overcomes” and “keeps” are also in the present tense – continuous and repeated action. We are warned that “holding fast”, “overcoming” and “keeping” must continue as a condition of security and must be continuously maintained.
TOM: The perseverance mentioned here (“hold fast” and “overcomes” and “keeps my works”) does not have as its goal the maintenance of salvation. It clearly pertains to having given power over the nations. It ties in perfectly with Jesus’ parallel of the Kingdom of God in Luke 19. Some servants received authority and power over ten cities; some over five etc.
We find the same idea in 1 Corinthians 15: “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
LOUIS: The emphasis during the church age (Revelation 2:1 – 3:22) until the Second Coming of Jesus (Revelation 22:7, 11-12, 14-15, 20) is on faithfulness, witness, and patience through many trials and temptations to the end. It is a life of perseverance. There is abundant assurance concerning the security of the believer, that security is conditioned on faithfulness, a condition which can be met by the aid of the Holy Spirit and the Word. Many passages from God’s Word must be ignored or badly misinterpreted if a person is still to insist on unconditional security.
TOM: Revelation 22:7, 11-12, 14-15 and 20 do not teach conditional security. Verse 7 merely pronounces a blessing on those who keep (the eye on; are diligently aware of) the prophecies in the Book of Revelation. Neither do verses 11 and 12 refer to conditional security. Verse 11 cannot be a reference to the situation this side of the grave because anyone who is unjust and polluted with sins in this world still has an opportunity to be cleansed and to be declared righteous through faith and repentance, unless, of course, you believe in the irreversible status of the reprobate who cannot become cleansed and declared righteous for all eternity.
Verse 12 speaks of rewards our Saviour will give to everyone for what they have done in their earthly bodies. “For other foundation, can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
Verses 14 and 15 must be read in the context of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem that will descend from heaven. Entrance into the city is conditioned on one thing and one thing only – “they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” (Revelation 21:27).
If salvation is conditioned on a saint’s perseverance and performance, we must again ask ourselves what Jesus meant when He said: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.” (John 10:27-30). Was He merely allegorizing the saint’s own responsibility to remain steadfast in his Father’s and his own hands lest they lose their salvation by wrenching open their hands and walk away?
If no man can pluck (“harpazo,” the same word Paul uses for the Rapture) them out of their hands, why do the anti-OSAS brethren doubt Jesus’ promise? If God the Father is genuinely greater than all, how dare we believe that the saint is able to pluck himself out of their hands? Even if it were possible to do so, no genuinely saved saint will ever want to pluck himself out of their hands (2 Corinthians 7:10).
In the light of the above, verses 14 and 15 cannot possibly be interpreted as salvation conditioned on the keeping of his commandments. Do we keep his commandments 100% every single day of our lives? Anyone who claims to do his commandments 100% (the only standard that satisfies God) has no need of a Saviour. Verses 14 and 15 cannot, therefore, have anything to do with the retainment or the perpetuation of salvation. Indeed, it relates to a blessing.
Contrary to the KJV that translates Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments, . . .” all the other translations render it as “Blessed are they that wash their robes . . .” (who were saved through faith and repentance). We must bear in mind that these saints are the ones who had lived through the seven-year tribulation period just prior to Jesus Christ’s return to earth. “And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:13-14).
LOUIS: Calvinists who defend unconditional security magnify the resources which God provides for the believer. The Bible stresses God’s grace, power, love, mercy, promises and chastening, the Son’s substitutionary death, priestly intercession, indwelling presence, the Word of God and the Spirit’s help in overcoming the “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1John 2:15-17). The Bible does not teach that we are being saved by works or by self-effort. However, there is a personal responsibility involved in perseverance (See Jude 1:21, 24-25).
TOM: Here again, these verses do not teach conditional salvation. In fact, verse 24 distinctly says that it is God Himself who preserves the saints from falling into the sin of apostasy to the extent that neither He nor anyone else can or will be able to bring a charge or complaint in against them. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (“who walk not afer the flesh, but the Spirit” is not in the original). . . . Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” (Romans 8:1; 33-34).
LOUIS: Believers’ security is conditional, but this should not cause fear or insecurity in the heart of the believer if he understands the Bible’s teaching about how we are kept. If such a fear arises, it is because of twisted teaching, imperfect understanding, or incomplete obedience which generates unbelief.
TOM: If saints are being kept by God why do they need to assist God in His work of keeping them? To say that we are kept but we ourselves are responsible to persevere in order to maintain our salvation makes you guilty of the very thing you warn against – unbelief. It amounts to an indictment of God that his power to keep us is not sufficient and that the saint himself must do something to uphold God’s keeping power. It is either God keeping the saint 100% or it is the saint himself who must keep himself 100%. God never works in tandem with the flesh. “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.” (Jeremiah 17:5).
If fear arises it is because of the teaching of conditional security. Many Puritans began to doubt their salvation on their deathbeds because they were not sure whether their performance (perseverance) matched God’s holy standard.
LOUIS: While it is possible for people to reach heaven while holding some errors in doctrine, we ought, nevertheless, to avoid those doctrinal errors that are hazardous to spiritual welfare and destiny. Two of these hazards may be mentioned. The first danger is a cheapened view of sin and salvation. Any doctrine that makes it appear safe to go on sinning while believing in Christ is hazardous in the extreme. The Bible standard for believers is holy living, not sinful living. The second danger grows out of the first. If it is possible for a believer to fall away and be lost, then a doctrine to the contrary is perilous indeed. It may bring one to the Judgment with a false confidence of safety.
TOM: I’m not too sure what you mean by “a cheapened view of sin and salvation.” There are only two ways to look at sin and salvation – the correct way and the wrong way. Anything in between that cheapens it, is wrong at any rate. Jesus said: “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:38). The Bible is our only guide to a correct understanding of sin and salvation. Anyone who moves beyond or out of the bounds of Scripture with regard to salvation, in particular, cannot be saved.
Your postulate “If it is possible for a believer to fall away and be lost, then a doctrine to the contrary is perilous indeed” is rather unfortunate. To say that “if it is possible for a believer to fall away and be lost, then the doctrine of eternal security is perilous indeed” is to say that Jesus’ words in John 10:27-29 are perilous, hazardous, death-defying words. I wouldn’t do that if I were you because it dishonors Jesus who said: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” (Numbers 23:19).
LOUIS: Apparently Jesus referred to just such an occurrence when He said, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in Your name have cast out devils? And in Your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:22-23).
Here are people, many in number, who are active religiously, but who have an apparent conviction that sin will not bar them from heaven. It is a shattering disillusionment to them that sinful living is in itself a sure barrier to entrance into the eternal kingdom of God. Their doctrinal position, whatever its justification for sinning as Christians, was tragically in error!
TOM: You cannot use this passage to defend conditional security because the ones spoken of here were never saved. The expression “never knew you” proves it. The main reason why Jesus will tell these people that He never knew them is because they base their righteousness on the things they had done in the Name of the Lord instead of on what He has done for them on the cross. They boast in their works and not in Christ. “Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:9).
“Iniquity” in this instance is not the general meaning of sin. It is more of a feigned righteousness to try and impress Jesus Christ with their good deeds. Jesus clarifies this in the very next few verses when He says: “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27). They built their lives on a false foundation instead of on Jesus Christ, the Rock of our salvation. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11).
Therefore, those to whom Jesus refers to here were never saved. They were merely feigning righteousness. They are like the ones who entered the wedding feast without the proper wedding garment (Matthew 22:13 and 14). “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” (2 Timothy 3:5)
Is Paul’s experience in Romans 7 the anti-eternal security’s Waterloo?
Those who are in opposition to OSAS believe that we cannot gain our salvation by doing good deeds but that we can retain it by not doing bad deeds. Even our most profound hatred of sin and our most intense efforts not to sin cannot please God, simply because our best endeavors not to sin (in other words all our righteousness following salvation) are as impure and polluted as a filthy rag. (Isaiah 64: 6). It is of the flesh and the flesh, as Jesus said in John 6: 63, is of no value in spiritual matters.
The slightest appeal to the flesh in an attempt not to sin and to remain loyal and faithful to Christ and thereby retain our salvation is a direct denunciation of Christ’s command to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. Any appeal to the flesh side-tracks the cross. Taking up our cross, as I’ve explained on several previous occasions, is not the hardships, tribulations, persecutions etc. saints have to endure during their sojourn here on earth. It means one thing only – to die to our own fleshly nature (old Adam nature). In other words, stop trying and start dying. Paul tried and it didn’t work for him. Are we any better than Paul?
Victory over sin cannot be accomplished by an effort not to sin but by dying to . . . . not the sins, but the very root of it, the imaginary goodness of the flesh that boasts it can do something to assist Christ in His on-going work of salvation (sanctification). Saints are quick to confess and repent of their sins but very slow and reluctant to confess and repent of their goodness. Their supposed goodness is often more of a stumbling block in their lives than their bad deeds. Only God is good, Remember? (Mark 10: 18).
Why is it so necessary to deny and to die to ourselves? Because the flesh is the most corrupt, most deceptive and the most lethal enemy the saint will ever encounter in his life here on earth. But isn’t Satan our worst enemy? To answer this we need to look at the difference between these two enemies of the cross. Yes! Not only Satan is an enemy of the cross but also the flesh. Satan and his demons are defeated foes. Jesus defeated them when He disarmed the principalities and powers ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it (the cross). (Colossians 2: 15). All that is necessary is to submit ourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee from us (James 4: 7).
The old nature or the flesh is a completely different kettle of fish. Its crucifixion (death) in and with Christ on the cross is a fait accompli and yet it needs to be reckoned as dead every single day for the rest of our lives (Romans 6: 11). In effect, Paul says that we are already dead to sin, the world, ourselves and Satan and therefore we should keep on dying. This is where the falling away doctrine meets its Waterloo because it reveals the utter deficiency of the flesh in doing anything that is pleasing to God, including the so-called retention of salvation. All saints agree that Satan is evil, but very little is prepared to admit that the so-called benevolent flesh is also evil.
In his discourse in Romans 6 on the complete deficiency of the flesh to attain God’s standard of holiness and a sanctified life, Paul cried out in utter despondency “nothing good dwells within me that is in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out; for I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, [but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul].
Every anti-OSAS adherent would agree that the retention of one’s salvation is a very good thing and yet Paul said nothing good dwelt in him, that is . . . his flesh. Doing a good thing by means of a good for nothing thing? . . . Impossible! Paul likened the evil propensity of man’s soul to try and do something good and pleasing for God to a stinking corpse. Then follows his outcry: “O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death? O thank God? He will! Through Jesus Christ, the Anointed One, our Lord!”
To summarize Romans 7 one can say it deals with “death through a good thing” and “life through death.” Let’s be honest with one another and acknowledge that legalism kills. Every “must” or “must not” in an effort to accomplish something in the sight of God is legalism, including all efforts or performances to retain one’s salvation. Paul says in verse 12 the Law is holy and each commandment is holy and just and good, but in the verse preceding it, he said that the very legal ordinance which was designed to bring life, actually proved [to mean] death.
The good thing (Law), kills and cannot give life. Every “must” and “must not” in the Law was designed to cast a glaring light on every sin in a sinner’s life, showing him that he is on the road to eternal death. That was and still is the purpose of the Law. If every “must” and “must not” in all matters pertaining to eternity is pure legalism and if it kills, what must one do to receive and retain eternal life? There is only one way – life through death, the death of the cross.
Paul acknowledged that all his “musts” and “must nots” bound him even firmer to the demands of the Law and that dying to his own efforts to accomplish good things for the Lord brought life in abundance. It simply means that he completely replaced his “I must” with “He will.” Note carefully that He will do it through His Christ, the Anointed One. In other words, He was anointed to accomplish everything that we so hopelessly fail to carry out, even the safeguarding and retention of our salvation.
One of the recurring arguments of the anti-OSAS camp is that a saint can lose his salvation when he renounces his faith in Christ, turns his back on Him and never returns. One must concede that when a person places his trust in his own faith to carry him through to eternal bliss, his “salvation” will be very shaky and will not prevail. But then again such faith is not genuine faith and therefore cannot be regarded as a faith unto authentic biblical salvation. The validity of one’s faith is not determined by the degree of your faith but by the Person in Whom you have placed your trust, as well as His immutable promises.
The very moment a sinner receives forgiveness for all of his sins on the basis of Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross and places his trust in Him as his only Saviour, His Spirit quickens the spirit of the repentant sinner and He makes His abode in him. Had it been possible for a saint to renounce his faith and lose his salvation the Holy Spirit would have had to break His seal of promise and depart from a saint’s spirit never to return again (Ephesians 1: 13). The intrinsic character of a covenant is that it is bound firmly by an unbroken seal; unalterably, permanently and eternally. Therefore, the postulated renouncement of one’s faith and the assumed loss of salvation is not merely the abandonment of a creed; it must be the Holy Spirit’s abandonment of the saint . . . which is impossible.
I have yet to find an anti-OSAS believer who can supply me with a comprehensive argument to refute what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7: 10
The quoted verse shows that there is a vast difference between repentance and regret. A person who regrets his “salvation” or his “faith” in Christ and turns from Him was never saved in the first place. Repentance is from God and it works a sorrow in the heart that draws people to Him and brings them to a place of confession and repentance. Adversely, a worldly sorrow drives people away from God into the hands of Satan. Peter showed godly sorrow and repentance and was forgiven; Judas showed worldly sorrow and regret and took his own life. (
Continuation at:
- Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 1)
- Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 2)
- Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 3)
- Eternal Security: NOSAS Versus OSAS (Part 4)
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Deborah.
I can only tell you what scripture say:Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. The word endure are referring to a continuous action. If continuous action is in the hand of God and not in our free will this will also amount to idle talk.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. We have to take up our cross daily, a continuous action of our free will.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Even Paul stated: “I have kept the faith”. I read into these scriptures just what it says. It does not state: God kept my faith, although we know from scripture that God is the One who keeps us, but we are the ones who must sow to the Spirit that we might keep our faith and not be distracted by the things of the world, and the lusts of the flesh.
Mat 7:14 “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” The way should not be narrow if God keeps us in the way, if we only had to enter through the strait gate, if our name could never be blotted out of the book of life. Our garments have to be kept white by our free will, and that is only possible by the power of God in us. Jesus said to the churches that those in the church who overcome, those who endure till the end, those who washed their clothes in the blood of the lamb, their names will never be blotted out.Rev 3 starts out:Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
God starts off with a warning that the church has some things that should be corrected. They must correct it. Only those who have not defiled their garments will walk with Him in white, and only those dressed in white, their names will not be blotted out. With this said.: God can remove my name out of the book of life, if I am not dressed in white raiment.
Okaayyy then.
>> Only those who have not defiled their garments will walk with Him in white,
How perfect/sinless do you plan to be before you meet your maker? Is there a level or meter at which you know how good you are/sinless you are in order that you will be saved in the end?
Deborah. It is not about being sinless but about the truth. I do not want to elaborate further about this (how sinless/perfect I should be before I meet my maker?) for I might open myself to misunderstanding. The truth of this specific issue I find in this scriptures. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Hans wrote:
The two passages you quoted prove beyond a shadow of doubt that a saint cannot lose his/her salvation. Why? Because the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Truth cannot lie. Therefore He did not lie when He decided to include John 10:28-30 in the Bible. By the way, you are still adamant to answer my question on John 10:28-30. Something’s fishy.
Hans
Right, now if the spirit who is the Holy Spirit abiding in us bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, How much more so will He keep us SEALS US – (Ephesians 1:13) “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”) that can’t be lost. You are sealed with a Godly seal that can’t be removed, just like your name can’t be removed from the book of life (that you insist can, even after Jesus said you can’t)
1) Why do you want to work for your salvation? 2) Are you going to lose your salvation?
Hans wrote:
When Deborah quoted Rev. 3:5 I anticipated as much that you would focus on the word “conquer” to prove that a saint can lose his/her salvation. You may have forgotten what Paul said:
Paul does not say “we may be” or “it is possible for us to be” conquerors. He says “you ARE MORE than conquerors. Why? Because our victory is through HIM that loved us.
You’ve accused me of not answering your questions. You are ignoring me and not answering my question: “Are you going to lose your salvation – yes or no?”
Tom.
This is one thing I do not understand. I gave you an answer to that question, so did Louis,(John10:27-30). The Spirit of Truth can not lie, but you and I can, and sorry to say, during our conversation on our security in Christ, you have evaded some critical questions and statements of myself. It seemed that you did not make the time to understand what I said. I know you are answering on many diverse questions and statements, but at least we should make the time to try and see what the other say, and none of us should think we have all the answers, for we learn daily, or at least, I do. I think I am to old for tantrums, and I think my conversation with you was void of any dishonesty. The subject of eternal security was handled some weeks ago. Why do you think I only brought it up again now? I took the time to read trough all five of your discussions with Louis, and did it twice more to see if I am not may-be misleading myself. To tell you the truth, I made a study of it. If we are contending for the truth of our faith, I think that it is the least we could do, that is to really try to see what another person say, and then measure it to scripture. 2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. I do not wish to argue about anything in scripture, but wish to bring some scripture under the attention of everybody. If you or anyone are not interested to consider what I lay on the table it is up to you. I do not know you and but I know myself, and if I should start boasting I would give you firewood to burn me, but I can only refer you to Pauls vain boasting. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? In everything I also want to urge you to examine yourself. I have said my say on our security in Christ, and believe everybody could see what my point of view is on this subject. Anybody that read what I wrote can see my train of thought, and nothing I can say further can convince anyone, except the word of God. So, please don’t think me rude if I do not comment any further. I will read anything on this subject and make sure of what I believe till the Lord comes to fetch me.
Hans,
Was I causing strife and being vainglorious when I asked you a simple question which you still refuse to answer? Why are you so adamant to answer my simple question: “Are you going to lose your salvation – yes or no?”
I really think you were being impatient when you decided to end our discussion so abruptly. That’s not nice, you know. It’s a slap in my face. So before you quote verses like 2 Timothy 2:24, Phil 2:3 and 2 Cor 13:5 or any other rap-over-the-knuckles kind of verses, I suggest that you first take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself whether you shouldn’t take those passages into serious consideration yourself. I suppose you have every right to end the discussion but then it should be because your opponent is behaving badly, for instance, suggesting that your opponent is merely a professing Christian and therefore not saved. Where and when did I behave badly? Quote me please.
It is rather strange that you should quote 2 Corinthians 13:5 to me because the “faith” Paul refers to there is not a kind of faith that believes a saint can lose his salvation. In fact, it is no faith at all; it is doubt and unbelief in the extreme.
Would you be so kind as to tell me again what you think of John 10:28-30 because I have forgotten?
Thank you
Hans
lol, basically what you are saying is that you want Thomas to agree with you. Believe you me, he TOTALLY understands every angle of what you believe.
John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one
Tom and Deborah.
I do not know how this happened, but some of your comments did not come through on the net as it should have. After my last comment some of your comments came through and it seems as if in the right order. I will work through it and if I think anybody could gain by it I will respond. I have downloaded our whole conversation and will work through it once more. Tom, to answer your question. I might lose my salvation if I do not heed to the Spirit of God reprimanding me.
Deborah. I do not ask Tom or you to blindly believe me but to look at scripture verse by verse, and word by word, what is written and not an analogy, except there be no other way to explain it, and when explained by an analogy other scripture has to back it.
Hans wrote:
Notice your “if I.” That’s the whole problem with those who believe you can lose your salvation. They look to themselves and not to Jesus to see themselves through to glory. Jesus said:
And by the way, when the Holy Spirit reprimands (convicts) a child of God, it is not to tell him he has lost his salvation but to take him back to the cross to confess his sins and receive forgiveness for them.
Paul said:
Paul was confident; your are not.
God the Father says:
He does not say “has life today and may not have it tomorrow” or “will have life pending his performance or track record.” How much plainer could HE have said it?
Hans wrote:
Like Louis you are constantly and haphazardly quoting Scripture without taking the context into account.
Why are you still dodging to answer my question on John 10:27-30?
I know, in the back of your head, you are saying: “These poor guys who believe in eternal security are giving themselves a license to sin as much as they please and then think they are going to heaven.” The reality is that the guys who do not believe in eternal security usually think “Oh Lord, I thank you that I am not like one of these who sin so much and then think they are going to heaven because I always heed the Hoy Spirit’s reprimands and they don’t. Hallelujah!”
Hans, would you say that King Solomon lost his salvation and is now in hell?
To Deborah and Tom and all the readers.
Scriptures used for once saved always saved.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Salvation, not to be repented of, does seem to indicate that once a person is saved he will never lose his salvation.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The sheep of Christ hear His voice and follow Him. Christ gives unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish. This also seems to indicate that once you are saved you can never be lost again.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
This scripture indicates that if we have the Son, we have eternal life.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Those that overcame, those who conquered, their names will never be blotted out of the book of life, for in all things we are more than conquerors (overcomers)“through him that loved us.”
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
This scripture tells us we are stablished in Christ by God and sealed. The word sealed indicates that it is irrevocable, it is done.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
An explanation of the above text, that is offered is: If hypothetically it should be possible for a saved person to lose his salvation, then Jesus Christ would have to be crucified again to save them and that is impossible. Therefore also, it is impossible for a saint to lose his salvation.
All of the above mentioned scriptures seem to indicate in one way or another that once a person is saved, he can never be lost again.
These scriptures are used by those who believe in once saved always saved.
HOWEVER !!!!
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Let us look at some more scripture pertaining to salvation for if we do not we might come to the wrong understanding of some of the indications mentioned above.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus Christ became the author of eternal salvation. An author as we all know is a writer, and thus we can say that Jesus Christ was the writer of eternal salvation, but a writer unto all them that obey him. It was written to the whole human race, but only applicable to those who obey Him. Thus, obedience is of crucial importance for eternal salvation. Obedience to what? Obedience to his word of God, to what was written of Him, through the inspiration of his Holy Spirit. In the word of God we have eternal salvation, eternal rescue, eternal safety. The moment we step out of the word of God, we no longer have eternal salvation, eternal rescue, or eternal safety, for our eternal salvation is in Him, in God’s word, the Word that became flesh. The Spirit of God is in his Word, not in some extra- terrestrial force, or spirit that gets hold of you and make you do all sorts of funny things. The Spirit of God will only testify of God’s Word. If the Word of God abide in you, then also will the Spirit of God abide in you. If the Spirit of God abide in you, then also will the Word of God abide in you. Abiding in the word of God does not mean to only know what is written in the word of God, but to live in the word of God, in the very same Spirit, the Spirit of the Word. Without obedience there can be no thought of living in the Word , living in eternal salvation, for eternal salvation is in God’s eternal Word.
Let us look at these scriptures once more: Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus Christ, the Son of God suffered all the temptations we suffer, for He was also human, and by suffering the same temptations of our flesh, without sinning, He could show and tell us what to do to be saved from our fleshly desires, our Adam nature, and to live a godly life. In His word, in what He told us, is eternal life. If we follow His word we are in eternal life. If we do not follow His word, there are no life in us. I do not know how to state it more clearly. Eternal life is in the word of God, the expression of the Spirit of God. For this purpose was the Son manifested.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
By exercise in the word of righteousness people are able to discern both good and evil. How do we exercise our senses? By sowing to the Spirit. That is a deliberate effort from ourselves to abide in the Word. Remember, the Spirit teach us about the Word, and the Word came forth from the Spirit of God. Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
He that sow to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption. (fthor-ah’ )
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. corruption (fthor-ah’ decay, that is, ruin spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively): – corruption, destroy, perish.)( From G5351 fthi’-ro properly to shrivel or wither, that is, to spoil (by any process) or (genitive) to ruin (especially figuratively by moral influences, to deprave): – corrupt (self), defile, destroy.
When looking at the above Greek words we can see the true meaning of the word corruption used in Gal 6:8 being corrupt, defile, destroy, to be depraved, ruined, spoiled. It does not have the meaning of physical death, but of spiritual ruin or defilement.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
From the above mentioned scriptures we can see:” He that soweth to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption. (He shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven) It is not a case of losing his rewards. He is bound for eternal hell. Corruption stands directly in contrast with the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I wish to give you an example from my own walk with God, with regards to sowing to the Spirit. I had a very short temper, and I knew that the word of God says: Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The Spirit of God reprimanded me, and I started to put in every effort to contain my temper. I failed time after time. I asked God continuously to help me, but still failed to contain my temper. At some stage I managed to hold it within, but it was still there, and I pleaded with God to eradicate it, for even if I contain my temper, it was not in truth, it was not in the Spirit of truth, for it was still there. Eventually the day arrived when all of a sudden, when something happened that would have seen me fuming, I was so calm that I almost could not believe it, and since then I am experiencing the rest in God. God has delivered me from a bad temper. I followed God’s command in His word and kept on praying and sowing to the Spirit, God saw my truthful seeking of Him and gave me the victory. Sowing to the Spirit was my prayer to God for victory. I know my efforts could never give me that victory, only God and God alone. To God be all the glory.
Only a child of God can sow to the Spirit, and according to Gal 6:8 he can also sow to the flesh, in which case he will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. It is our responsibility to sow to the Spirit for God tells us to. Is it works to obey God? Never in a million years. My faith in God, my faith in his Word compels me to obey Him. I will to obey God , I run the race because I believe his Word. Sowing to the Spirit means that we sow to the word of God, that we willingly put in every effort to obey Him, and ask Him for the victory, for as I have already explained, the Spirit of God is in His word and His word tells us:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
When you are yet a child in God that still needs milk, how do you grow?
1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
By desiring the sincere milk of the word, by studying the word of God in sincerity, it follows that God worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Should you as a babe in Christ neglect to desire the milk of the word or neglect to obey what you already know about the word, and persist there in, you will most certainly die spiritually, for everlasting life is in the word of God.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The word therefore refers to what is said in the previous verse. In exercise in the word of righteousness, we can go on to perfection.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
And we will leave the principles of the doctrine and go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation, if God permit. Why if God permit? Doesn’t God want us to go on to perfection? (There is grave danger.) The foundation has to be well laid first.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
God wants us to go on to perfection, but should we get to a place where we have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and should fall away, it is impossible to renew us again unto repentance, seeing we crucify to ourselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. They that tasted and fall away is lost forever. (this is in context)
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
The word persuaded means: A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): – agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
I see this word “persuaded” as a word of encouragement, not as a certainty, especially because he had to reprimand them in the previous chapter, and also because of the end of that scripture: “though we thus speak”.
The writer is addressing babes in Christ, and in the following verse he once more encourage them.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
God will not forget their work and labour of love towards his name.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
The writer of Heb. Expresses his desire that every one show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end. What is this full assurance of hope? Christ in you, the hope of glory. Our full assurance are in living in the word of God, in the Spirit of his word. A desire for diligence speak of works of faith.
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
The promises can only be inherited by not being slothful, by putting in every effort, to be followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
By patiently enduring in faith, we receive God’s promises, as I also described in my testimony of my personal experience of how God gave me the victory over a bad temper.
Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
By faith, and endurance we flee for refuge to lay hold apon the hope set before us. Christ (the word) in us, the hope of glory.
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Who entered into the veil? Jesus Christ, the word of God. What is an anchor to our souls? Christ, the word, in us. With Him, the word of God in us, we are able to enter into the veil.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
We find the same message in Heb 12:14-17 as in Heb. 6:4-6
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Only the children of God inherit the blessing. Sinners repenting can inherit the blessing, but for a child of God who sold his birthright, there is no place of repentance.
This scripture warns us that we might not have any chance of repentance should we fail of the grace of God. We have to follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. We should look diligently, lest any root of bitterness spring up and many be defiled. A defiled person will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. The Spirit of God works diligence in us, but we can still be slothful out of our own choice.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
We must lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us. We must run with patience the race that is set before us. Jesus is the author (writer) of our faith and if we stray not from the faith (what is written), if we obey Him, if we run with patience the race set before us, He will finish the good work He started in us. We have to resist, striving against sin. Is this not works? It might be works if we do not believe in Jesus Christ, but it is a result of faith and the working of the Holy Spirit in us if we believe on his Name. If God forbade any works, He would not have told us: “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.” If every believer can never be lost, why would God use these words: “lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.”
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Let us look at the word “foreknowledge”. Those who were elected were elected according to the foreknowledge of God. God knows the end from the beginning. God knows who will endure in faith till the end. God knows that some people will believe, but that some will fall away from faith in Him, from faith in his word.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This is the same message as in Heb. 6:4-6 and Heb. 12:14-17. (there are even more)
God knows all of this in advance, for He knows the end from the beginning, and God knows them who will be sanctified by the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ , and those who will crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh. Only God knows who was once saved and will always be saved, not because God was unable to save them to the utmost, those who was once saved, but because they chose to no longer place their faith in Him, because they no longer chose to place their faith in his word, to live by God’s word. If the word of God does not abide in you, then also will the Spirit of God not abide in you. By God’s foreknowledge, God knows. Is it safe to tell people that those who were once saved will always be saved? In line with our inability to know the future, and our deceitful hearts and in line with the word of God, the warnings already mentioned, it would be disastrous, not because of added effort, but because the whole council of God was not known to them. We have safety and eternal life in the Word and in His Spirit. That is enough. 1Jn 1:9 “ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Let us look once more at the scriptures that indicate once saved always saved.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
God is the one who established us in Christ and has anointed us. By faith, God established us in Christ (in the word of God) and those established, living in and by the word of God are sealed. Established in Christ is to be established in the word of God, in the Spirit of the word, the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of God, in Christ, in his word, seals us. Should we stop obeying the word of God we are no longer sealed, for we are then no longer in the word and in His Spirit.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
If we should grieve the Holy Spirit to a point where the Holy Spirit no longer testify with our spirit that we are children of God, we are at Heb. 6:4-6.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
It is the Son (the word of God) that is sealed. If we live in Him, in God’s word, then we are sealed. God tells us to labour (work) for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
“He that hath the Son (Word) hath life”. Eternal life are in the Name of the Son of God. The Name of the Son of God is derived from the Spirit of the Son of God. If we do not abide in the word of God, in the Spirit of his word, we do not have eternal life, we are not sealed.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
To hear the voice of Christ (the word) understanding of the word is needed. When we understand (not only a mere mental understanding, but also a Spiritual understanding) Christ knows us, and we follow Him. In this is eternal life, obeying the word of God in Spirit and truth. In Him we have eternal life, for as long as we follow Him. While following the word of God in the Spirit of God, there is nothing in heaven and earth that can pluck us out of the hand of God, only our own choice, our own free will. Does that prove that God is not omnipotent. No, God in His omnipotence decreed it to be so. If God by His omnipotence kept us in His hand against our free will, how would there be any proof of our continuous love for Him once we believed. But we are bad and and even if we believe the word of God we can not endure in our own strength. IT IS RIGHT HERE WHERE THE TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH. If we love the word, if we love Jesus Christ, we will be willing to give up anything and strive with all our might to obey God’s word, in the hope of glory, in the hope of becoming as He is. That is the proof of our love. That is proof of the truth in us.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
There are many, many more scriptures that indicate that eternal security is in Jesus Christ, in the word of God, and I have not addressed some of the scriptures that seems to prove once saved always saved. This should be enough at least to make people enquire for themselves from God.
Once again I wish to reprimand anyone with knowledge of scripture.
1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
I know this is out of context, but still, there is overall truth in these last words: “Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.” 1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Neither me, nor you, or anyone else had the knowledge of scripture we have, the day we put our faith in Christ. There might be many babes in Christ with a little knowledge of the word, that ask questions, and differ because of their lack of knowledge. Do you think it is right to tell them they are not saved, or would it not be better to tell them in patience the gospel truth and let them decide for themselves. We can not force people to believe what they do not believe. Neither can I force you to believe what I have just written. Thank you for condoning me on your blog.
Concerning Hans’ lengthy comment.
Deborah, I don’t know whether you have the time to answer this dude. I don’t. Not a single passage he quoted from Scripture proves in the very least that a saint can lose his salvation. He even admits that he quotes verses out of context and yet persists in his fallacy.
He says:
He also says some very strange things like:-
The irony, Hans, is that you may not be telling people they are not saved but you are doing something much worse than that. You tell them they can never be sure of their salvation because they can lose it and never be saved again.
I really don’t have the time to answer all your quotes from Scripture when you seem to be unable to understand the simple meaning and the context in which it is written. As I said in another comment: Those who believe one can lose his salvation are usually the ones who believe they will never lose their salvation. It is always the other person. It is Phariseeism at its worst because it oozes the same attitude of “Thank you Lord, I am not like the other sinners cause I am able to persevere right to the very end.” RUBBISH!
Hans,
You don’t understand that when the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you, HE TAKES OVER YOU and will NEVER FAIL YOU.
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Php 1:3-6)
When you come to understand this important FACT, please come and comment again, until then, please don’t as we are going around in circles with you and it’s wasting our time. Sorry. Thank you.
“Those who believe one can lose his salvation are usually the ones who believe they will never lose their salvation. It is always the other person. It is Phariseeism at its worst”
So very true. The lie of “losing salvation” never seems to happen to those who believe they can lose it.
Same goes for any that add any works to salvation (which is a false gospel), or who use works to “prove” they’re “good enough” for God. They always seem to be sure that they are living very well. They only push their lies and destruction on others.
Abe
Thank you for your comment and how right you are.
And one said to Him, Lord, are the ones being saved few?
But He said to them, Labor to enter in through the narrow gate, for I say to you that many will seek to enter in and will not have strength.
From the time the Master of the house shall have risen up, and He shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
And answering, He will say to you, I do not know you, from where you are.
Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.
And He will say, I tell you I do not know you, from where you are.
“Stand back from Me all workers of unrighteousness!” (Psa. 6:8)
Luk 13:23-27 LITV
Can someone please help me on this?
What is the context that Jesus is referring to?
Dear Vincent
First you need to look at a good translation like the KJV or NKJV or the Amplified.
Luke 13:22-30 (NKJV)
22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then said one to him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said to them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and has shut to the door, and you begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not from where you are:
26 Then shall you begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in your presence, and you have taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not from where you are; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
Does that make more sense?
[EDITED:Vincent, I’ve edited my comment]
>> Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
They seek it, but do not agonize for it, and hence, they are shut out. They have a sense of godliness but deny God’s power (2 Timothy 3:5) They know who Jesus is (or some false doctrinal version of Jesus), but He never came into their life and renewed them.
>> When once the master of the house is risen up, and has shut to the door, and you begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not from where you are:
It means that, at the appointed time after the door is shut MANY WILL SEEK to be saved but will not be able to enter in. (Matthew 7:22-23) In other words as an example they procrastinated and said “ah I’ll get saved tomorrow, or I’ll get will saved when things go really bad” but tomorrow never came because Jesus Christ shut the door and no one could enter anymore.
>> Then shall you begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in your presence, and you have taught in our streets.
Again read:
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
This verse includes Satan’s ministers of righteousness (false Christian pastors) and other false Christian (2 Corinthians 11:14-15), they acted (to a degree) like a Christian, and spoke what many believed to be the gospel but it was false teaching that lead millions to hell – their hearts had not been sprinkled by the Blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:22) i.e., they were not saved. This includes all religions (Jews included) that preached about their coming Messiah and got the shock of their life to find out they were wrong, they preached about a Messiah, but it was a false one.
Hi Vincent, Thanks for your comment.
I am very pleased to see that you are a real Berean who has a special interest in the context in which certain passages are written before you venture to make an opinion. That’s a very good thing. First of all, the best way to determine context is to see whether there are any other passages in Scripture that may elucidate the ones that seem to be more difficult to understand. So let’s do that now and see what happens.
We may summarize the context of Luke 13:22-30 with this verse from Matthew 8.
The children of the kingdom are the Jews, and you may recall that Jesus said these words just after he had healed the servant of a Roman Centurion (a Gentile) who said to Him: “And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.” When Jesus offered to go immediately to his home , the centurion said: “The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.” Jesus said “Wow, did you hear that? This man is a Gentile and not a Jew who are supposed to believe the way he does in order to enter the kingdom of God on earth. Not even the children of the kingdom (the Jews) have this kind of faith that is required of sinners to enter into my Millennial kingdom on earth.”
OK, this is not what He actually said, but that was precisely what He meant. He actually said: “When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.” As you can see, the key to an understanding of both Luke 13:22-30 and Matthew 8:1-10 is the little word “faith.” That makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it especially when we take into account what Hebrews 11:6 teaches: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Contrary to this and like our modern-day Calvinists, the Jews believed they were God’s chosen ones to whom the kingdom on earth was/is promised. Well, that is true. However, that was, and still is today, not enough to be granted entrance into Jesus’ Millennial kingdom here on earth and ultimately into heaven. Jesus’ disciples knew very well that God promised the kingdom to the Jews. That’s why they asked Him, “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Note carefully – not to the Gentiles but to the Jews. Now listen carefully to how He answered them: “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Act 1:7-8).
It was as if He was saying to them: “Whoa, don’t be so hasty. I cannot just willy-nilly give the kingdom of God to the Jews because it was promised to them. They must first hear my Gospel and respond to it in genuine faith (Romans 10:17) before I can grant them entrance into my kingdom on earth. You must first receive power from above and be filled with the Holy Spirit before you can face such a daunting task, i.e. to be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Sadly, the Jews to whom He said his disciples should present the Gospel first (Romans 1:16; 2:10; Matthew 10:5-6), did not receive his message of salvation through faith as they should have and were therefore sent to the Gentiles who received it gladly (Acts 13:38-42; 48; Acts 18:6).
Let us now return to Luke 13:22-30. Please take not of the following important elements in this passage.
1. The kingdom of God (verse 20).
2. Many will seek to enter but will be unable. (verse 24).
3. A shut door (verse 25).
4. Familiarity. “We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.” (verse 26).
5. Rejection (verse 27).
6. Eternal punishment. (verse 28)
7. Gentiles from all corners of the earth will sup with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob during the Millennial age of peace whilst most of the Jews will be thrust out into an eternal hell (verse 29).
1. The mention of the kingdom of God in verse 20 immediately tells you that Jesus was dealing with the Jews in particular. We’ve already seen from Scripture that the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth is primarily Jewish.
2. And so also is the seven-year tribulation after the pre-trib rapture and prior to the Millennial kingdom primarily Jewish. It is called the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). However, many gentile unbelievers who will have been left behind at the pre-trib rapture, will also enter into the seven-year tribulation and many of them will be saved during that time. (Read the parable of the great supper in Luke 14). The Millennial Kingdom is often likened to a great supper or a wedding feast. In fact, the marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven and the marriage supper here on earth (during the Millennial Kingdom) when many gentiles from all four corners of the earth will sit down and sup with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob while Jesus Himself will serve them.
3. The only precondition to enter into the Millennial Kingdom is faith. Unfortunately, many Jews, who will know by all the many signs given to them during the seven-year that Jesus Christ’s return to earth is at hand, tribulation (1 Corinthians 1:22), will not obey the invitation to repent and obey the Gospel.
4. These are the ones who will base their kinship to Jesus on familiarity and their kinship to father Abraham (Matthew 3:9). Hence their words, “We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.” (verse 26). They were, in fact, saying: “Why would you bar us from your wedding supper during the Millennial Kingdom that was promised to us when we have eaten and drunk with you so many times in the past?”
5 to 7 Nevertheless, they are going to be rejected because of a lack of oil (salvation). This is where the parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins come in. These virgins refer to the Jews, some of whom will be ready for Jesus’ Second Advent at the end of the seven-year tribulation and some won’t. You may recall that when the foolish virgins went out to buy oil for their lamps that had gone out, the Bridegroom suddenly returned and those who were ready (had enough oil and their lamps burning bright), went in with Him to the marriage dinner (Millennial Kingdom on earth). When the foolish virgins returned the door to the Millennial Kingdom was already closed.
I hope this was of some help to you.
Thanks, it does make sense =D
How do you interpret 1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-5, 1Tim 1:9-10, Rev 21:7-8 & 22:15?
In the general sense.
Dear Vincent
I think those verses are pretty self explanatory. Can I ask you why you are asking these questions, what is your aim? Are you trying to disprove once genuinely saved always genuinely saved? 🙂
I do not honestly know? There are many questions?
With regard to the scriptures mentioned do they exclude all those who practice these sins from the Kingdom of God?
Take for example the parable of the sower “fall away” G868 αφιστημι to depart, draw (fall away).
Does a person conclude that the person was not “saved” in the first instance, or that they were, but then departed from hence?
Romans 13:11 & 1 Peter 1:9 does this refer to an immidiate, or a future chronological time, a present until future?
What is Jesus saying in Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13?
What is the writer of Hebrews saying in Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 13-14?
Is 2 Timothy 2:19 referring to a “nice to have” add on of no consequence?
Maybe I am missing the context or the full understanding?
Do the precidents in the old testament fall away or is Acts 5:9 a fluke in the new testament?
Sorry for the many questions, but these are legitimate concerns I have.
If you could shed some light on any it would be of great assistance.
Hi Vincent Holloway,
You have asked a lot of questions and will take some time to answer every single one of them, especially the passages of Scripture you mentioned. However, allow me to ask you. Did you attribute anything from your side to be saved or did Jesus do everything? If your answer is “nothing,” what makes you think you can do something to maintain your salvation?
Hi Vincent,
Please note the word “now.” It denotes progression. To them the “now” was nearer to their salvation than when they believed, in the same way the “now” is nearer to our salvation than when we believed (much, much nearer of course – more than 2000 years nearer, I would say). The “salvation” cannot refer to “being born again” when we believed. It must, therefore, refer to something else and indeed, it does. It refers to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture when all the believers will finally be delivered (saved) from sin, temptation, corruption and death. I’m referring to the resurrection of all the believers (Jesus’ bride) when they are going to receive their new spiritual bodies like unto that of Jesus at the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
To understand 1 Peter 1:9 better, we need to go back to verses 3 and 4
Note the phrase “hath begotten us (saved us) again unto a lively hope.” Why would He say “begotten us again” when we had already been begotten (saved) the moment He redeemed our souls? Because this is “unto a lively hope.” The latter is just another way of saying “saved us unto the blessed hope” and as you may know the “blessed hope” is a reference to – yep, again – the Pretribulation Rapture.
Matthew 10:22 (Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13). As you have rightly pointed out the exact same phrase “endureth to the end shall be saved” appears in all three these passages. Whereas the salvation in the aforementioned passages (Romans 13:11 and 1 Peter 1:9) relates to the Pretribulation Rapture, these passages refer to the seven-year tribulation itself and particularly to the end thereof. At first glance, it seems to say that saints need to strive to maintain their salvation because if they don’t they will lose it. That’s not what it means. It speaks of all those who are going to be saved during the seven-year tribulation, a time, as Jesus said, never had its likes in the past and will never again, and who will need to endure to the very end so that they may enter the Millennial age of peace on earth in their natural bodies. It simply means that those who by the grace of God, remain alive throughout the seven-year tribulation will enter Jesus’ Kingdom on earth unscathed in their natural bodies.
The context here is not eternal salvific security. It deals with the saints’ priestly and kingly roles in the Son’s priestly house where He is now seated at the right hand of God, ever living to intercede for us. Hence the mention of Moses’ faithfulness in the tabernacle in the wilderness which was a shadow of Christ’s priestly office in heaven at the right hand of the father. Paul, who I believe was the author of Hebrews, was concerned that some of the brethren would succumb to false doctrines and develop an “unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God” causing them to lose or forfeit their duties in the Son’s priestly house.
I assume you included 2 Timothy 2:19 to suggest that those who believe that saints cannot lose their salvation are implying that you may live as you like, knowing full well that you cannot lose your salvation. In other words, OSAS encourages debauchery and sinfulness. This is an unfounded accusation. In fact, the NO-OSAS bunch’s herald that the saints must strive to maintain their salvation lest they lose it, is in itself sinful and debauched. Why do I say that? Well, the Bible says that our best works are like a filthy rag, causing it to be totally unacceptable to God. So, you can try as much as you like to maintain your salvation without realizing that your trying (efforts) are as sinful as the worst sins imaginable. We are never commanded to try not to sin. We are commanded to die to sin. Of course, any failure to overcome sin in your live will have its consequences and these are the consequences:-
You asked:
To what precedents in the Old Testament are you referring? Bear in mind that after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit a huge revival followed suit. It is obvious that the devil, a liar from the beginning, tried to put a stop to it and used two believers to achieve his goal. The reason why God acted so swiftly in judgment was to protect the ongoing revival. Had He not acted in the way He did, Satan could very well have used Ananias and Sapphira to stop or at least damage the revival. Did they lose their salvation? I think not. What they lost, was not their salvation but the rewards they could have won at the Bema throne of judgment (1 Corinthians 3:9-15).
Thanks =D
Under which Article Archive can I find the best reference regarding eschatology?
Dear Vinncent
I think the best is to look under the Rapture category and read all articles here.