The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints
The DIFFERENCE Between Assurance of Salvation (Once Saved, Always Saved) and CALVINISM’S Perseverance of the Saints (Once CHOSEN, Always CHOSEN)
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between Calvinism’s version of ‘once saved, always saved’ and the BIBLICAL version of Assurance of Salvation.
You see, Calvinists believe you are CHOSEN by God before you are born, therefore you are actually ‘ONCE CHOSEN, ALWAYS CHOSEN’. If you are Elect, you can’t become un-elect! The Biblical version is WE HAVE FREE WILL, when you come to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you are REGENERATED; the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you and HE SEALS YOU, and your name is written in to the book of Life.
Philippians 4:3 “Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
Revelation 3:5 also makes is clear that once a name is written in the book of life, Jesus PROMISES that He will never blot it out.
Revelation 3:5 “The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”
Who are those who have conquered? Well these are those who have overcome the trials of earthly life and are genuinely saved. In Revelation, Jesus was speaking to all the Churches, and He promises to acknowledge us before His Own Father and the angels, those whose names are written in the book of life. Unfortunately (Revelations 20:15) reveals the fate of those whose names that are NOT written in the book of life and they go to the lake of fire…
Revelation 20:15 “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
In Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 21:27, we find the references to the “Lamb’s book of life”, in which are also names of all those who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb who has been “slain from the creation of the world” has a book in which are written all those who have been redeemed by His sacrifice. They are the ones who will enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:10) and who will live forever in heaven with God. Since the book of life is that which records all who have eternal life through the Lamb, it’s clear that the book of life and the Lamb’s book of life are one and the same.
When the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, he stays there forever! He does not come and go and come and go each time you fall into some kind of sin.
John 14:16 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever. “
The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in (Ephesians 1:13-14) where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:13-14 “13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
The envision of being sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God has promised eternal life to all who are genuinely born again, and as a guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy Spirit to abide in the believer until the day of redemption. Kind of like making a down payment/deposit on a house or a car, God has provided all believers with a DEPOSIT on their future relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to abide in them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is also seen in (2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30).
2 Corinthians 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”
Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
NOW LOOK AT THIS – DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OLD COVENANT AND NEW COVENANT:
Now, BEFORE Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven, before the NEW COVENANT, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with people. The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then He departed from him:
1 Samuel 16:14 “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”
Here (1 Samuel 16:13) we read that the Holy Spirit came upon David. But after his adultery with Bathsheba, David feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him.
Psalm 51:11 “Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.”
In (Exodus 31:2-5) we read that the the Holy Spirit filled Bezaleel to enable him to produce the items needed for the tabernacle, but this is not described as a permanent relationship.
The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth when she heard about Mary’s conception and her baby leaped in her womb.
Luke 1:41 “And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost“
But all of this changed beginning on the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2) the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling believers. Pentecost was the commissioning of the Christian church and the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and never forsake us.
Now, understand this, while the Holy Spirit will never leave a GENUINE believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” or “grieve the Holy Spirit”
Quenching the Holy Spirit: 1 Thessalonians 5:19 “Quench not the Spirit.”
Grieving the Holy Spirit: Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Sin ALWAYS has consequences in our relationship with Jesus. While our relationship with God is SECURE in Jesus Christ, UNCONFESSED SIN sin in our lives WILL hinder our relationship with God and it will quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to ask Jesus for forgiveness of our sins because God is “faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the reward and joy of His presence in our lives will feel far away, because sin drives a wedge between us and God and we are effectively distancing ourselves from Jesus.
As Christians SEALED by the Holy Spirit you will still sin, but if you are genuinely born again, the Holy Spirit will CHASTISE you every time you sin and you will sooner than later repent of your sins. But there are people who PROFESS to be Christian and they do not have the Holy Spirit in then. These are people who can speak Jesus’ name, they go to church, even have big ministries teaching people the bible and they sound so intelligent, but they have not been REGENERATED, because they refuse to give up their sinful ways, they refuse to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.
Luke 14:27 “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”
They think they can have it both ways.
2 Timothy 3:5 “They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these.“
They have bad fruit, they follow doctrines of demons, and they mingle with evil people and very easily compromise the Word of God for the sake of ‘unity’.
Satan always does twist scripture for his own advantage and tell people that at an alter call if they just pray the sinners pray they will be saved and never lose it, but God knows who is GENUINELY saved and who isn’t. We CAN’T fool Him. People CAN FOOL EACH OTHER into believing they are real Christians, when in fact they are not. And how do we tell if they are not, well by the things they do and say (the fruit of the spirit) – the words the speak/preach. But even then, sometimes we meet some ‘great pretenders’ some brilliant con-artists and it takes a long time to figure them out.
See this article as well: Eternal Security – Genuinely Saved, Always Saved!
Deborah, someone asked that you give some solid doctrinal truth and you have certainly delivered BIG TIME.
It seems that so many believers are confused about this point and say that the only thing they agree with in Calvinist/Reformed doctrine is the “P” in TULIP, “Perseverance of the Saints”. Thank the LORD you have exposed this destructive lie for what it is!
Yippy Yay! 🙂
Shucks, this 1 point Calvinism thing compared to Once Saved Always Saved was driving me bonkers… I just had to get the message out there. Enough is Enough!
GRRRREATT ARTICLE Debs!! Very well written and simple enough for all to understand (including me).. : ) After reading this, no-one can say that they cannot see the difference between Calvinism and what the bible says about our salvation.
TC
>> After reading this, no-one can say that they cannot see the difference between Calvinism and what the bible says about our salvation.
Oh I hope so. Truthful Conversation, I so really hope so.
Once saved always saved is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (John 3:16). Calvinism is against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, since calvinism seeks to run right around faith in Jesus for salvation, and instead, moves to you working to “prove” you are part of the “elect”. That is not the Gospel. So the two are indeed totally different.
Last post on this subject. Not wishing to get into a debate I will simply refer to this article by Sandy Simpson. This is what I believe to be a balanced approach to the subject and I would be in agreement with his thoughts:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/osas2.html
As you said, Debs, everyone has to read the Scripture for themselves and draw their own conclusions. And sometimes it takes some time to see things from a different perspective. What we have always believed or been taught is not necessarily right. All we can ask for is that people ask the Holy Spirit for his wisdom.
Carolyn
>> This is what I believe to be a balanced approach to the subject and I would be in agreement with his thoughts:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/osas2.html
Balanced? Um why are you comparing to the doctrine of Arminianism? No one here on DTW is Arminian; it is a works based salvation (Methodists follow the doctrine of Arminianism).
You have not gone and done your OWN bible study on the matter, you read reading someone elses comparison between Calvinism (false teaching) and Arminianism (false teaching) That is far from being balanced.
Calvinism and arminianism are both false. They both point you to works for salvation.
Jesus points us to faith alone in Him for salvation (John 3:16, Romans 4:5).
Dear sister Carolyn,
The article to which you refer begins with this:
Right off the bat he indicates that he does not understand the difference between eternal security of the believer and the Calvinist doctrine of Once Chosen, Always Chosen.
Also, please understand that no one here has EVER promoted Arminian doctrine.
The author of the article you cite is comparing one false doctrine against another. He means well but is totally missing the salient point and not seeing for forest for the trees.
We have to shine the light of truth of the Bible to expose false doctrine, not compare one false doctrine to another and point out partial truths in each one!
Does this make sense to you? This is one reason why the clear truth presented in Deborah’s article is so needed in the Church today to counter the mixture of truth and error that causes confusion.
Au contraire, Debs. I have done my own study. You weren’t there.
We cannot leave out the whole counsel of God for our own preferences of doctrine. Our own preferences can be just that. We all have blind spots.
If you read the last part of the “Oversimplification of the Facts”, just before the Summary in the Simspon’s article, there are Scriptures that agree with walking away from our faith. If you didn’t have faith, how could it be shipwrecked or how could we turn away from it? It’s a big leap of presumption to say that people who profess to have faith never had it. The Word says they did…and they have turned away….
I do believe that we are Sealed and Assured of our Salvation if we continue in our faith. I have a friend who attended Bible College, became angry and today lives a life of total debauchery and still believes he’s a Christian with a few (well many) problems. You would say he never was a Christian. I would say he has departed from the faith by his own free will. And since he refuses to repent of his sin, alcoholism, cursing, mocking, etc. I am not his judge. His own sin will testify against him…unless he repents. He’s 63 now and time is not on his side.
For myself, I am grateful for God’s grace and assurance of Salvation. I am grateful for the Holy Spirit’s seal, his promise of eternal life, his Presence, his life as I continue in the vine. But I cannot take Him for granted. Like any relationship, it doesn’t follow that my own choice is now dead. I could at some point, decide that the narrow way of Christ is no longer for me. If I refuse to abide in the vine, I will disconnect myself from the source of nutrients, I will wither and die. And I will be cast out. That’s Scriptural. If the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I choose to listen and repent, I will be saved. That’s also Scriptural.
We may not agree on this point, but we are still sisters in Christ and I still love you and those who blog here for the glory of God. We will not agree on everything, to be sure, but I enjoy the discussion. Keep up the good work, Debs. Your blog is a worthwhile, Bible based defence against false teaching. Thank you!
Carolyn, you have disagreed agreeably.
When one is saved one is SEALED unto redemption. We are not akin to the situation where one makes a purchase (Jesus paid the price for us) and then
when it doesn’t work one returns it for a refund. In God’s economy it doesn’t work that way.
We don’t have the power to keep ourselves once we are saved and sealed. God cannot reject Himself and that is exactly what would happen if a person can walk away. 2 Timothy 2:13 speaks to this.
And where is that imaginary line one must cross to commit enough sin to go past the point of no return? How many times must a person sin in order to lose their salvation?
God chastens His own. If your friend was GENUINELY saved, then she will soon be chastened by the Lord as to her lifestyle. If a professing Christian sins, and is never chastened, then we can safely assume that the profession was not genuine. In extra cases, there is the sin unto death when God may prematurely call the person home.
Think about this. God knows the beginning from the end. So He was fully aware of ALL the sins each person will commit at the time of their conversion. With that in mind, He is the only One who has the power to keep us.
I hope this is helpful!
We here in North America are just about on our way to bed when you are just getting started. So I thought I would add a bit more to my comment. I actually have studied the subject of OSAS out quite a bit because of my friend mentioned above.
Two years ago when he lost his house, his job and his car, he stayed with us for nine months. During that time we got to know him very well. The first 3 months, I drove him to the liquor store every day for his case of 15 beer and pack of cigarettes. Funny how he didn’t have money for food…but he was able to support his habits. I had many talks with him about his faith…and I was most baffled at how he could still consider himself a Christian with his lifestyle. He talked the talk, however, and so I observed. But then things got ugly, he got abusive and I went to Bible study mode. In the end he cursed me out and I won’t allow him back here without some big changes. I have forgiven him, but I draw the line at abuse.
The reason I didn’t want to get into a big discussion on OSAS is that I haven’t been on the blog much and I although I have read some of the posts about William Branham, Kathryn Khulman, etc because that was my background…I wasn’t aware of any deep doctrinal differences. I just landed here Sunday as I was surfing and was genuinely sad for the abuse that you were suffering through, Deborah. So I had no premedited ideas of straightening anyone out. I will probably just do some listening for the time being and fade back into the shadows. But I did want you to know that my prayers are with you.
Carolyn
Righty..lets have a look at these verses…under the heading OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE FACTS!
Ok, please Carolyn I ask that you read this and understand why people can’t take a scripture and use it out of CONTEXT like Sandy Simpson has.
Romans 11:16-24
16 If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.
17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root,
18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.
22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?
This is talking about Israel and the Gentiles. “16 If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.” If the regenerated remnant in Israel is to be a people set apart to God, so eventually will the whole nation to which they belong. And if the root of the covenant olive tree be holy (that is Abraham), so are all those who are really linked with him by faith (because Abraham was Holy because of his faith in God).
Israelies are the natural branches in the olive tree, by birth but not by grace – who were broken off. And in order that the promises of God to Abraham should not fail, “In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed,” the branches of the wild olive tree (that now being the Gentiles were grafted in among the remnant of Israel) thus Jew and Gentile believing together, partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
But there is a danger and that is, should the Gentiles rest on mere outward privileges, all the while linked with the children of the promise (Israel), should the Gentiles fail to appreciate the gospel of God, and so prove unreal. In that case, God will have to deal with the Gentiles as He had dealt with the Jews. And so we get this WARNING: “Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.”
Some might say, “Yes, but the natural branches were broken off, that I, a Gentile, might be grafted in.” But the answer is clear and the warning is distict: “They were broken off because of unbelief, and thou standest by faith.” Therefore the admonition, “Be not high-minded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.”
Do we need to stop to ask whether the Gentiles have valued their privileges? Is it not clear to every spiritually-minded person that observes this situation that the conditions in Christendom today are as bad today as they ever were in Israel? Do you not see apostasy from the truth everywhere? The features of the last days, as depicted in 2 Timothy 3, manifesting wherever. Are we not warned that the time is near when the unfruitful branches will be torn out of the olive tree (Gentiles) and the natural branches (Israel), at last turning back to God, will be grafted in again to their own olive tree?
In these dispensational ways we see manifested the goodness and severity of God. Severity on those who fell, who refused to believe the testimony. But goodness toward unworthy Gentiles; this goodness only continued toward them if they (as a whole) continue to appreciate it, otherwise they, too, shall be cut off. That day of the cutting off is near at hand, when the true Church having been caught up to be with the Lord (Rapture), judgment will be meted out to the earth dwellers (the start of the Tribulation), and then God will turn back in grace to Israel, if they abide not still in unbelief, and they shall be re-grafted into their own olive tree, according to the power of the God of resurrection.
Now you say you studies these scriptures? You say I was not there, you are right, I was not 🙂
Ok that was just one verse I will look at the others just now… I need to do something urgently…
Colossians 1:23
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Debs…how do you read these two verses? “if you continue” to me is conditional upon us continuing in the faith, the vine, in the way, in the Son….
My friend started out in the faith but wandered off when he became angry with another pastor. Some things became more important than obedience and submission
Sorry Redeemed. Just saw your comment now. In reply to this:
We don’t have the power to keep ourselves once we are saved and sealed. God cannot reject Himself and that is exactly what would happen if a person can walk away. 2 Timothy 2:13 speaks to this.
Did my friend walk away? To me he was saved…he repented of his sin, was studying to be a pastor and so was sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Why would he walk away? Because he was angry. He became abusive to the pastor and they fell out of agreement. He says he never walked away from God, but his lifestyle says differently. Yes, he still may repent, but I have only seen a deeper hardening of his heart. I live in the real world. OSAS can be wishful thinking for those we love.
Hebrews 12:14-16
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
I dunno…I see someone who let a root of bitterness shipwreck his faith and he sold his birthright for a moment of anger that turned into a lifetime…
Ok the next one from under the heading OVERSIMPLIFICATION OF THE FACTS!
*bangs head on desk* lol, this gets me when people don’t explain this verse PROPERLY.
Philippians 1:6
6 For I am sure of this very thing, that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Sandy Simpson says, “Paul was confident in prayer that the Philippians would be brought to final salvation because of their perseverance and faith.” No, the apostle Paul had no doubt as to the final outcome for every true believer. He was absolutely confident that the One who had begun a good work in them would not stop until He had perfected that which He Himself had commenced. Any work that God begins, He will surely finish. (1 Sa 3:12). Much more the fact of His beginning the work is a pledge of its completion (Isa 26:12) But the final outcome would only be attained and manifested in the day of Jesus Christ.
I’ll look at the next one…now
Debs. I concede that Romans 11 is talking about Israel and the Gentiles(the Church)…but still the principle is the fact that there is danger in unbelief and we can be cut off because of unbelief. We must not become arrogant or over confident as though it couldn’t happen to us.
Consider the principle in:
John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If we don’t remain in him…by faith, we will wither. Our faith is a living, growing, abiding, continuing, persevering, enduring confidence and obedience in the One who saved us. If our faith (which is our attachment to the branch), is gone…what sustains our life?
To me the whole OSAS argument hinges very securely on the word SEALED. Sealed is a promise with a condition. That’s all. It’s not holding God hostage if we become unbelieving and disobedient as the children of Israel in the wilderness. They tested God and lived with the consequences.
He does know the end from the beginning, so he is the only one who knows our heart. And if we choose him above our self, he will bring us to our reward, regardless if we stumble or struggle for he loves us and that is reassuring.
Carolyn
Let me explain this first verse…
Colossians 1:23-25
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
The if with which verse 23 begins has been perplexed many who dare to accept the truth of the believer’s eternal security, But, if rightly understood, there is nothing here to disturb any sincere believer. This is not the first kind of IF, there are a number of others in the NT, all dealing with the same subject; the testing of a profession.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we read, “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”
Here the IF is inserted in order to exercise a consciences of any who, having professed to believe the gospel, are in danger of forgetting the message, thereby proving that they have never really received the truth into their hearts in the first place. He would have them carefully examine their foundations. Many are so ready to profess Christianity and seem to do all the right things, seemingly outwardly looking like ‘people of God’, but who have never TRULY TURNED turned to the Lord in GENUINE repentance and no REGENERATION has taken place. These are the people who endure for a time but soon forget the claims of the gospel when something small triggers them to be unhappy with Christianity, or when when satanic temptations draw them away into a life of perpetual sin.
In Hebrews 3:6 we again have another such IF. “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”
The meaning is plain and simple. It is just not enough to PROFESS to have Christian hope. Those who are GENUINE will for sure hold fast till the end, as we also read in Hebrews 10:38-39 Endurance is the PROOF OF REALITY, IS PROOF OF GENUINE SALVATION. When the Holy Spirit indwells the soul it is lasting, and we can be 100% assured that He who hath begun a good work in any one will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, the time when He shall come for His ransomed people to complete in glory what His grace began on earth.
Paul did not pretend to say who of the Colossians were really born of God, how could he, he could not judge a mans heart. But he had confidence that most of them were Christians, so he wrote in such a way as to stir up the consciences in case any of them thought of become a bit slack. There were so many new religions abounding, and it was a cause for grave concern, wolves sneaking in leading people astray. So those who are GENUINE CHRISTIANS, grounded in spirit and truth, these will not be swayed away from the hope of the gospel. They know all too well what it has already done for them to, that they would so eagerly turn away from it to some new and untried doctrine – like people do today.
Carolyn
This is another of this IF verses. You understand this exactly as you read Colossians 1:23-25
1 John 2:19-25
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us.
20 Nevertheless you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you that you do not know the truth, but that you do know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. The person who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
25 Now this is the promise that he himself made to us: eternal life.
This is another of this IF verses. When you read verse 24 you read it exaclty as I explained it to you in the Colossians 1:23-25 (see my comment above)
John wrote of these PRETENDERS, “They went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19). It’s interesting to notice, that once outside these PRETENDERS became the worst opponents of those who stand for the Gospel Truth of Jesus Christ. It is true, no one who hates the gospel more than the person who once professed to be saved but afterward turned to a life of sin because there was no reality in his profession. These were the antichrists John warned the little children about in his day. John called all Christians little children irrespective of their age.
How are the little children to guard against these false teachers? Look at 1 John 2:20-21 “But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.” He said, “Ye know all things” Ok, not every detail, but potentially you know most of the details. Because you have the Holy Spirit abiding in you, the One who DOES KNOW, and therefore you don’t need to be carried away by any form of error.
What do young believers have as their resource? Well, they only have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God! They have the Word of God in their hearts and the Holy Spirit abiding in them them to open their eyes to the TRUTH. When people come along with their false teachings that deny the blood of Jesus, or the deity of Christ, of any doctrine of Jesus Christ, or emphasize human attainment, or works to attain salvation etc, etc, etc, young Christians can turn back to the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit abiding in them will illuminate the Word of God them and thus prevent them from falling into error.
Carolyn
And again, another IF verse… “John 15:6 6 “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Ezek 15:2; Matt 3:10; Matt 7:19; Col 1:23;”
You mis-interpret the text again. IF a man does not abide in Jesus Christ its because HE NEVER WAS A CHRISTIAN. You mis-understand the text… This be a parable. ALL GENTILES are rooted into the Olive Tree NOW, right? Every person has a branch right? Unbelievers are the fruitless branches, while believers are the fruit-bearing branches, right? Now..if one person’s branch is cut off, it’s not because they were Christian and then lost their salvation, it’s because they just never became Christian, or they professed to be, but they never were, God knows each person time, when they will reject him or not, and therefore until such time only then will he cut them off from the Olive tree – there will come the time when all Gentiles will be cut off (time has run out) and God’s focus will return to Israel and they will make up the entire Olive Tree. You are reading these verse in the wrong order, swap your thinking around 🙂
Do you see?
Do I see? LOL…
I’m seeing double right about now. I just woke up with this verse going through my mind so I thought I’d look it up. Wouldn’t you know…it’s another IF verse. I’ll paste it for your consideration and I will concentrate on your answers in the morning. Back to bed I go…
Hebrews 3:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Carolyn, this in reply to your # 12 comment:
When I read this I immediately discerned that your friend was never a believer in the first place, a COUNTERFEIT, a PROFESSOR, NOT a possessor.Am I judging his heart, NO! There are so many red flags here waving that he is not genuine!
First of all, if I took someone in I would NEVER enable them be taking them down to get their alcohol – with drinking like that, your friend is obviously an ALCOHOLIC!! Not to mention that he was smoking like a chimney and obviously in bondage to cancer sticks.
Did it ever occur to you that it might have been his own fault that he lost his house?
And after you stopped helping him feed his habits, he got really ugly. HELLO!
And you put up with this for 9 months? My dear sister, you must have the gift of mercy! If I had taken him in he would not have been allowed to smoke or drink in my home and he would have been expected right from the getgo to pull his share of the load.
And how do you know that the altercation with the pastor was the pastor’s fault?
So if you are basing your view of OSAS on this friend, you are barking up the wrong tree. Over the years I have been exposed to people who have PROFESSED and have in the time of testing or it starts to wear thin that it comes out that they have NOT been truly saved! They know how to play the game! And by doing so they harden their own hearts.
It is very simple. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation and there is nothing we can do to keep our salvation. When a true Christian sins, they are convicted and are miserable in it. And if they persist in it, they will either destroy themselves or the Lord will call them home prematurely. Their salvation is never in question, but they will give account at the Bema seat and they will suffer loss as they face the Lord and realize how they have failed to live for Him. Faithful servants will receive crowns and hear the Lord say “Well done, good and faithful servant” and tears will be shed by those who served themselves over the Lord.
Your friend is a classic example of a counterfeit “christian” who knows how to talk the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. I need to qualify this by saying that one can be a Christian and due to circumstances fall away for a time. This happened to me (I received the Lord at an early age but it was heartfelt) during a time of trial and I was very bitter toward the Lord. But the Holy Spirit kept drawing me back and affirming my faith. The Lord never left me and He will never leave a true believer. He keeps His own – I have doubt whatsoever of that.
Just a comment on all this, as Debs has listed the biblical verses and has done the explanations.
I was walking in sin when I married an unbeliever. When I went through this stage of disobedience, things happened to me which I knew was the Lord’s chastisement, and I had a constant longing for the Lord, and to be right with Him. I confess I lived under constant conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I was miserable. It was a very difficult time as my husband was not interested in my beliefs, and I went back and forth trying to witness to him, and giving up. I went in and out of a sinful lifestyle.
It is a very long story which I do not wish to go into, but eventually we attended a church, where my husband ‘gave his life to Jesus’. In the years to come I did not see any real change in him. He was still abusive, physically and verbally. He never showed any interest in God’s word, and only picked up his bible to take to church. After church he was often moody and nasty, he would regularly have me in tears. Sometimes we went out for lunch after church, and he would drink alcohol. I could not understand how anyone could walk straight of church and drink alcohol.
My husband and I separated seven years ago, he was already living a worldly lifestyle, and he has continued to drink heavily and show no interest in God, whatsoever. His friends are all worldly, he swears something terrible (he always did), and there is absolutely no evidence of sorrow or guilt over his sin. He never talks about the Lord and I can’t talk to him about God either. On the other hand, I turned my life COMPLETELY back to God, not because I am a good person, or a better person than my ex husband, but because I had been truly saved in the first place. I was always miserable when I was living with sin in my life.
My conclusion has to be that my ex husband was not truely saved. I do not judge him, I care for him, and I pray for him all the time. I pray that He will turn to Jesus before it is too late.
My point here is that there is a definite difference between someone who is TRULY saved and falls into sin, and those who have a false conversion.
ok. Here’s where I am
Can we judge sinful lifestyle? Yes. I would also state that lifestyle is our choice, not God’s
1 Corinthians 5:12
From Scripture:
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
Can we judge genuine faith? No. We cannot know another person’s heart.
From Scripture:
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Can we lose genuine faith? I don’t know that either. But unbelief is not a popular option with God. It seems to be the dividing line.
From Scripture:
Hebrews 10:39
But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
King James Version (KJV)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Can we judge conversion? Yes I would also state that that is God’s gift upon condition of our confession and belief
From Scripture:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And as long as we are on this earth I see…we still have the gift of choice. Choose this day whom you will serve. Choose between life and death. I choose Christ!
Agreeing largely with Deborah and hope all find the following helpful. Taken from Dr Robert Dean’s teachings.
What Does It Mean To Abide in John 15
Abide
Gk meno Strongs
1) to remain, abide
a) in reference to place
1) to sojourn, tarry
2) not to depart
a) to continue to be present
b) to be held, kept, continually
b) in reference to time
1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
a) of persons, to survive, live
c) in reference to state or condition
1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one
The Reformed and Arminian view is almost identical. They claim ‘abide’ = ‘believe’ (Gk pisteuo 4100).
Believe
Gk Pisteuo Strongs 4100
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a) of the thing believed
1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference
1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
a) to be intrusted with a thing
Reformed: The Calvinist claims that those who do not abide; were not genuine believers in the first place, and will burn in the fires of hell vs6.
The Arminian: Those who do not abide, were saved, but lose their Salvation and will burn in the fires of hell. vs6.
The Calvinist never had it and will burn in hell.
The Arminian had it, and lost it, and will burn in hell.
Free Grace aka CHAFER: Abiding = FELLOWSHIP with God. Believers are the branches who either abide (stay) in fellowship, or do not abide in fellowship with God.
ALL the branches end up in heaven, it is their dead WORKS (fleshly) that are burned at the BEMA fire. 2Cor5:10; Rom14:10. [NOT the judgment fire of Rev.20]
Free Grace = Faith alone in Christ alone (no works pre or post salvation)
[Beware of the Crossless gospel of the Grace Evangelical Society]
Maranatha
Carolyn
I am also seeing double believe it or not LOL. Only because I have a headache, I will reply, but I will be a bit slow today as I have some other thingies I need to do 🙂
Sue
AhhhhHUH!!! That makes perfect sense…
That is absolutely true.
So Carolyn, are you a Calvinist, Arminian or a Christian? 🙂 Just asking you to think about the differences here…because there are BIG differences.
———————
It’s interesting to note that Jacob Prasch (and all at Moriel Ministries) believes you can lose your salvation and they follow the teachings of John Wesley (Arminian /Methodist) and George Whitfield (a mixture of a Calvinsit/Methodist)
If you go and look at every one who believes they can loose their salvation, you will find that they follow Arninian doctrine or even a Pelagianim.
Arminians / Methodists are very works based. They believe you can lose your salvation hence WORKS plays a very big part in their salvation. They have to make up for their shortcomings through ‘works’, because they don’t want to change their ways.
Whereas biblical Christianity, your salvation is based on FAITH alone an nothing else.
Redeemer…yes, I know he is an alcoholic. Yes, I know a lot of things now. And it is much more complicated than labelling myself as a loopy enabler. Factor in about 20 other complications and you have it about right.
I’m not basing OSAS on any one individual. But he was a catalyst that made me think seriously about the subject. That’s all.
As far as judging him as a counterfeit Christian…I still don’t have to concern myself with that. He certainly thinks about God a lot. How do I know if he will or won’t one day kneel before God and repent of his sin? His mom was a Christian and prayed for him till her dying day. I have to believe that God put him here for a reason and my job was to take it one day at a time and keep myself in prayer.
Debs…
Up until about 12 years ago, I was a tongues talking, vision seeing, dream believing, experience oriented charismatic. I attended a Kathryn Khulman meeting in Toronto when I was 12…became totally star struck. Read every book, followed every charismatic celebrity, paddled down the WOF river, rounded the bend, caught up with the NAR crowd and then Wham! Bam! I got out just in time to miss Revival Todd and his boot kicking antics. Even though…would you believe it? He’s from the same town as me where he got his start in ministry. Also attended church with Ms. Extreme Prophetic Patricia King many years ago. She’s also originally from Abbotsford.
Anyhow, now I’m just a plain old Christian with no initials, ranks or labels attached. Just a Scripture based, faith based, fact based, Truth based, Christ based believer.
Hope your head feels better soon, Debs…ouch…I get caffeine related headaches. Not fun.
Also, good to hear some of the other comments. Experiences, thoughts and perspective. It’s all good.
Carolyn
>> As far as judging him as a counterfeit Christian…I still don’t have to concern myself with that. He certainly thinks about God a lot. How do I know if he will or won’t one day kneel before God and repent of his sin? His mom was a Christian and prayed for him till her dying day. I have to believe that God put him here for a reason and my job was to take it one day at a time and keep myself in prayer.
We can’t judge who is and who isn’t a Christian, we do not know what is going on in people’s lives. But when it comes to the gospel itself the Bible is clear on the matter. So you and I can’t judge and we don’t know if someone will come around in the end, ONLY GOD KNOWS THAT. That is why the rule of thumb is this, IF a person holds fast to the gospel TO THE END, then HE IS SAVED, if he does not, he is not saved.
>> Up until about 12 years ago, I was a tongues talking, vision seeing, dream believing, experience oriented charismatic. I attended a Kathryn Khulman meeting in Toronto when I was 12…became totally star struck. Read every book, followed every charismatic celebrity, paddled down the WOF river, rounded the bend, caught up with the NAR crowd and then Wham! Bam! I got out just in time to miss Revival Todd and his boot kicking antics. Even though…would you believe it? He’s from the same town as me where he got his start in ministry. Also attended church with Ms. Extreme Prophetic Patricia King many years ago. She’s also originally from Abbotsford.
Now listen to this, until such time as you obeyed the Holy Spirit and came out of false teaching, you were one of those branches ready for the fire (just like I was before I was saved). You thought you were saved, but you were not. You thought you were following the bible but you were not. But you are clearly a genuine seeker of the Lord Jesus Christ and God KNEW that you would come out of false teaching (because He knows all our futures) and accept Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit would come to abide in you and then your eyes were opened to the TRUTH of everything you were involved in and slowly to quickly you came out of it…
When I got saved I knew nothing of Christianity, so I went to churches not knowing there was this thing called ‘false Christianity’ and I went from church to church seeking Jesus but I could not find Him. I felt totally out of place. Like there was something wrong in these churches, but I could not put my finger on it. I didn’t realise that I already had Jesus in my life 🙂 It took me a while to cotton onto this as I was led up the garden path by some false Christians. Only when I started to obey the Holy Spirit and open my bible and start to study the Word of God by myself did things become a reality for me. And I can honestly say that there were times in my life (before I was genuinely saved) where I ‘turned to God’ and I attended a church and did the alter call thing and thought I was saved, but I was not. I was so far from it because I went back to my old ways so quickly after that. My conversion came when I gave my whole life to Jesus Christ and I changed my ways there and then on the spot, I wanted Jesus more than life itself and that was the day the Holy Spirit came to live in me. Before that, I was a professing Christian for a few months before I went back to my old ways.
I am going to say something very shocking now, but I know for a fact that people know they are not genuinely Christian even when they profess to be Christian because they can feel it deep down – they know their relationship with God is rocky or null and void. And they can fool everyone around them into believing they are Christian, but they can’t fool God.