The General Conversation Section – If You Don’t Know Where to Say it, Say it Here!

Wayne Jack

Because America is not a city but a country.

Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. (Revelation 18:10)

Wayne Jack

Run as fast as you can – in the opposite direction. Ecumenism is of the devil.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev 18:4)

David Jeremiah seems to be a Luceferian.

Sharon wrote:

If you do not agree with me then please let us believe differently and say so without malice and arguing. Those two things can really wear down a person’s testimony. I am not correcting anyone that reads this. I only am giving my personal viewpoint on the topic of the Lord’s true church.

Jesus once said: “Take heed that no man deceive you.” (Matthew 24:4). Paul warned against deception in the strongest words imaginable (Galatians 1:8-9). Not one of them ever said, “Let us believe differently” and none of them issued serious warnings with malice or arguing. To be deceived by someone else is a travesty but self-deception is even worse. Personal viewpoints are certainly permissible but as soon as personal views contradict Scripture, red light begin to flicker.

You don’t seem to know or understand or at least you do know and understand but refuse to acknowledge what Jesus meant when He said “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7). The Comforter (Holy Spirit) was the One who would unite believing Jews and Gentiles into ONE BODY (the CHURCH) in a practical way. This could only have happened on the Day of Pentecost. To say that the church was in existence prior to Pentecost is to deny Jesus’ profound words in John 16:7.

Not a single one of the ten reasons you mention is proof that the church existed before Pentecost.

1.) It had a rule of discipline before Pentecost. Matthew 18:17. (And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.)

A “rule of discipline” and the use of the word “church” do not prove that the church as we know it today existed before Pentecost. The word “ecclesia” simply means “called out ones.” As such Christ’s apostles were called out of their lifestyle of sin and the world to follow Him. The “church” (called out ones) consisted mainly of the apostles. Their knowledge of spiritual truths was very deficient. Think of it; they did not understand why He had to be crucified (Matthew 16:21-23) and neither did they understand that He would be raised from the dead. Were they ignorant of his death and resurrection because He failed to teach them these vital Christian doctrines? Absolutely not! (Matthew 20:18-19; Matthew 26:1-2, 31-32; Mark 8:31; Mark 10:33-34; Mark 14:28; Luke 18:31-33). And yet, even to the very moment when He was raised from the dead, none of them believed that He would be raised from amongst the dead. Yes, they believed that there would be a general resurrection of the dead because they had learnt it from the OT, but they couldn’t understand that He would be raised from amongst the dead as the firstfruits (1 Corinthians 15:20).

Let’s briefly recap two of the most important incidents in the lives of the disciples in regard to his death, burial and resurrection, which is the very core of the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), and honestly ask yourself whether they were equipped to preach this glorious Gospel prior to Pentecost.

In John’s Gospel we hear of Mary Magdalene approaching the tomb and seeing the stone rolled away she begins to panic. She immediately runs to Simon Peter and to John sobbing that they had taken the body of our Lord and lain it somewhere else. Had she believed Jesus’ words which He had spoken to them before his crucifixion, she would have rejoiced and told Peter and John “He has risen as He told us He would.” Notice Peter and John’s response.

If Peter and John believed that He would be raised from the dead, they would have comforted her and said something like. “Sister, don’t fret. Jesus must have risen from the grave as He said He would.” As you know, they immediately ran to the grave. John ran much faster and arrived there before Peter but he did not enter the sepulchre. The Bible says he stooped down to take a peek inside and saw the linen cloths lying there. Peter, the one that was always more forthright in all his doings, entered the tomb.

Verse 9 says they did not know or understand the Scriptures that said He must rise from the dead. Verse 8 says that John believed, but notice carefully what happened then. Verse 10 says, they returned to their own homes. If they really believed they would immediately have trumpeted the wonderful news among the brethren and not returned to their own homes. We must bear in mind that the disciples and the other brethren were afraid of the authorities and sought the safety of their homes.

Luke recounts that the women who were at the grave to anoint his body and had witnessed the open grave and the angels’ witness that He had risen, told it to the apostles. Sadly, the Bible tells us “And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.” (Luke 24:11). Verse 12 says that Peter, after he had seen the linen cloths lying by itself in the tomb wondered what could have happened. Does this sound like someone who believed then?

The second incident occurred when the disciples met up with Jesus in Galilee to witness his ascension into heaven. This is what Matthew says: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshiped him: but some doubted.” (Matthew 28:16-17). What kind of church members who didn’t understood the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus (the very kernel of the Gospel) right up to his ascension, could proclaim the Gospel of God with fear or trepidation. And yet, despite their unbelief, their doubts and fears, Jesus commands them in the next few verses to go into all the world and proclaim the Gospel. To understand this seemingly strange paradox we must turn to Acts 1:4-5: “And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.” (Pentecost).

2.) We read that Jesus sang in the church. Hebrews 2:12. The only time that Jesus ever sang, so far as we have any record of it, was at the institution of the Lord’s Supper. Mark 14:26. This was before Pentecost. (Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.)

How you can come to conclusion that the church was instituted before Pentecost because Jesus sang a hymn at the Last Supper, I really don’t know. Hebrews 2:12 is a direct quote from Psalm 22:22 (a Messianic Psalm) and, as you so rightly said, probably points to the Last Supper where He sang a hymn with his disciples. But this doesn’t mean that He never sang (praised) God the Father in the assemblies of his brethren,, the disciples. Once again the word “church” at that stage did not refer to the church as we know it today. It refers to an assembled group of his brethren who participated in the Last Supper with Him that evening in the Upper Room. As I said before the word “ekklesia” simply means “called out ones.” Strong’s defines “ekklesia:”From a compound of “ek, ex” and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): – assembly, church. So, as you can see, it does not necessarily always refer to the church as we know it today but to any congregation or assembly of people.

3.) They had a business meeting before the day of Pentecost and elected a successor to take the place of Judas. Acts 1:15-26.

If the selection of people to a specific office is a business matter and if it indicates that the church was already in existence prior to Pentecost, then the selection by God of people to the office of high priest and priests in the Old Testament was also an indication that the church existed before Pentecost. Speaking of offices or positions, the offices of pastors and evangelists (travelling preachers of the Gospel; missionaries) was only put into place after Pentecost when the church (as we know it today) was established. The apostles of Jesus were neither pastors nor evangelists. They remained apostles (eye witnesses to Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, burial and resurrection) and their main field of work was in and around Jerusalem (Ephesians 4:11). There are no longer apostles in the church, only pastors, evangelists and teachers.

4.) The apostles were in the church before the day of Pentecost. 1 Cor. 12:28. The first ones who were put in the church were the apostles, and this was at least three years before the day of Pentecost.

I have already answered this quite extensively. If the apostles had already been in the church, they would have been united in one body with the Gentiles and indeed acknowledged in faith that they had already been united in one body with the Gentiles. This could and did indeed only happen at Pentecost when the Spirit of God began to indwell both Jews and Gentiles by faith. Ironically Peter and some of the other apostles, even after Pentecost, believed that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was only for the Jews. Peter had to learn by means of a vision from heaven that whomever God had declared clean should not be regarded as common. (Acts 11:9). Read the whole of Acts 11.

Later Paul had to rebuke Peter because he refused to eat with Gentiles (Galatians 1:11-14). If Peter acted contrary to God’s will after Pentecost with regard to the Gentiles, how much sterner must he have been before Pentecost? Indeed, the mere notion that God had plans for Gentiles to be united with the Jews in one body was completely alien to Peter and the rest of the apostles before Pentecost. As I said before, they didn’t even understand why Jesus had to die and be resurrected from among the dead (the core of the Gospel), let alone understand that they were already in the church (united with Gentiles in one body).

5.) The church had its commission to preach before Pentecost. Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15.

The apostles received many commissions before Pentecost but they were only capable of executing those commissions when they received power from on high at Pentecost. (Acts 1:1-2, 8). Note the word “will” in verse 8. You will never understand that the disciples only received power from on high to proclaim the Gospel at Pentecost while you refuse to take note of simple tenses in the English language.

6.) The church had its authority to baptize before Pentecost. John 4:2

The reason why Jesus did not baptize but his disciples, was because He hadn’t been crucified and raised from the dead yet. He, as John the Baptist explained, would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. If He had baptized new believers, He would have had to baptize them with water and that was NOT his function. By the way, was the baptism the disciples administered the baptism with the Holy Spirit or was it still the Baptism of John?

7.) The church had the Lord’s Supper before Pentecost. Matthew 26:30

That doesn’t prove that the church as a united body of Jewish and Gentile believers already existed prior to Pentecost. There were no Gentiles present at the Last Supper. The twelve apostles, including Jesus were all Jews. The Last Supper looked in advance to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Last Supper today looks back in retrospect to his death, burial and resurrection.

8.) The keys of the kingdom were given to it before Pentecost. Matthew 16:19.

You seem to have a big problem with tenses in the English language. I was (past tense); I am (present tense); and I will be (future tense). Is that so difficult to understand? “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

9.) It had a church roll before Pentecost with names on the roll. Acts 1:15

It was not a church member roll as we know it today. Peter merely tells us how many assembled in the upper room.

10.) To this church there were about 3,000 additions on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:42.

It is obvious that, when the 120 were gathered in the upper room and the Holy Spirit was poured out on each one of them like tongues of cloven fire, the church was formed for the very first time. At that very moment, when many people from every nation who were in Jerusalem, heard the sound, they gathered around the apostles and heard the Gospel preached to them. Voila! Both Jews and Gentiles became one in one body that very day when 3000 were added to the apostles who also received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on that very same day.

Sharon wrote

Thank you Thomas for your fine words concerning the Lord’s Church. This is the Liberty we have in Christ concerning what we believe the Bible is teaching on any given subject. I figure you and I are not that far off in what we believe. We say it some what differently sometimes but that doesn’t make either of us wrong or any less Christian. We see things differently and that can be a good thing. There are many things to consider when we hear something taught differently from each other…hopefully I will be a Berean.

The problem I have with the belief that the church was instituted before Pentecost is that it negates so many things Jesus taught about the church. It actually denies that the Holy Spirit was essential to its establishment while Jesus said that the Comforter could never have been given while He was still on the earth. Hence his words in John 16:7. To negate or deny anything Jesus taught is rather dangerous.

Sharon wrote:

This is the Liberty we have in Christ concerning what we believe the Bible is teaching on any given subject.

In fact, we don’t have the liberty in Christ concerning what we believe the Bible is teaching on any given subject. Anyone who dares to believe differently from what the Bible teaches on the subject of salvation, for instance, is treading on very dangerous ground. Agreed, the different views on when the church started, does not have any bearing on your salvation. However, it could deceive many, especially young converts, that the Holy Spirit’s outpouring on Pentecost was not the empowering driving force behind the institution of the church but merely Jesus’ physical presence on the earth. What does that leave you with? Well, it suggests that Jesus was a liar.

I have proven to you again and again that the church could not have started with the disciples before Pentecost. They were in a process of learning many vital spiritual truths, for instance the facts about Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Therefore, they were not yet prepared and made fit for the daunting task that lay ahead of them. That would only take place on the Day of Pentecost.