Heaven is For Real – This Story is Not
Heaven is for Real – This Story is Definitely Not
Today I will give a review of “Heaven is for Real – A little boys astounding story of his trip to heaven and back”. I went to a local Christian book store called CUM Books stores here in South Africa to find hundreds of copies of this book stacked under the ‘Best Selling’ section. I picked one up and thought to myself, “Satan’s smart, he is now using little kids to sell his story.”
To give a brief summary of the story, little Colton aged 4, complains of stomach pains and runs a high fever. His parents, Todd and Sonja Burpo take him to a hospital where the doctor fails to diagnose the problem. The little boy is now deteriorating to such an extent that they remove him out of the hospital and take him to another one where he is diagnosed for a burst appendix. Rushed into surgery, little Colton while on the surgery table experiences something many people never do. He apparently goes to Heaven and meets Jesus. After he is home he starts to recount his story to his parents, as best as a 4 year old can, of his trip to Heaven and back.
There have been many books written by many people on their supposed trips of Heaven where they meet a ‘Jesus’ type person. One being Choo Thomas’ “Heaven is so Real” and then Don Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven”, who just happens to endorse Heaven is For Real. In the front of the book on the ‘Praise for Heaven is For Real’ pages, there are praises from 12 different people telling you why you should by this book, all reasoning as to why Colton’s story is just as good as that of the bible, and why you should “allow a little child to lead you.” — Don Piper, Speaker and Author, 90 Minutes in Heaven
Todd Burpo is a pastor at a Wesleyan church. This helps to cement the trap. First we the reader would surmise that a 4 year old child would never lie like (Alex Malarkey “The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven”), and to top things off the father of the child is a pastor – Satan would never go after a 4 year old child of a pastor, would he? Especially if the pastor is biblical sound in his doctrine, or is he? Throughout the book Heaven is for Real Todd Burpo points to scripture to try and back up his sons ‘visions’ but with terrible inaccuracy. For anyone not knowing scripture, they would agree with Todd, being non the wiser. After all he is a pastor, he should not be telling untruths to his church, let alone the whole world.
Heaven is for Real and it’s problematic areas:
I am now going to take you through the book Heaven is for Real, looking at all the problematic areas. We are going to deal with this book biblically which includes being logical. God gave us a brain to use – let’s use it.
False visions from Colton:
1) On page xix of Heaven is for Real,when Colton first tells his parents about his trip to Heaven he states that the angels sang to him. He says, “Dad, Jesus had the angels sing to me because I was so scared. They made me feel better” ..at the time… “I was sitting on Jesus lap”. Now Colton was scared because he was having surgery. Immediately we have a problem with this statement. If you are sitting on Jesus Christ’s lap, surely you will not be scared? But yet Colton is scared and this Jesus figure has to get the angels to sing to him in order to make him feel better. The bible tells us:
John 14:27 “27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
Philippians 4:7 “And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
2) Colton tells his father about Jesus’ horse, he says; “Hey dad, did you know Jesus has a horse?”….”Yeah a rainbow horse, I got to pet him. There’s lots of colors”. pg. 63
In Heaven is for Real, Jesus has a horse that resembles that of a My Little Pony? And we as Christians are supposed to believe this? Rainbows are also very significant in New Age teaching.–(This we will discuss in more detail later). Todd tries to justify his son’s vision by telling us about scripture of “the rainbow colours described in the book of Revelation” pg. 66
3) Colton also tells his father that this Jesus figure had a crown; “Yeah a crown, and it had this… this diamond thing in the middle of it and it was kind of pink…” pg.66
In Heaven is for Real, it would appear that the Jesus of Colton’s vision not only has a My Litte Pony but appears ‘plastic’ as well. A pink like stone in his crown? Who are we kidding here! The Jesus that appeared to Colton certainly does not look anything Jesus Christ the Son of God as spoken about in the book of Revelation – visions given to John. Now this vision we can believe because it’s in the bible:
Revelation 1:12-16 “I turned to see whose voice it was that was speaking to me and when I had turned I saw seven golden lamp stands, and among these lampstands I saw someone ‘like a Son of Man’. He was dressed in a long robe with a golden girdle around his breast; his head and his hair were white as snow-white wool, his eyes blazed like fire, and his feet shone as the finest bronze glows in the furnace. His voice had the sound of a great waterfall, and I saw that in his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face was ablaze like the sun at its height.“
The Purple Sash
4) Colton also says his Jesus wore white with a purple sash in his book Heaven is for Real he says, “Jesus was the only one in heaven who had purple on, Dad Did you know that? pg 65
Todd then tries to confuse the reader of Heaven is for Real by saying the following, “In scripture, purple is the color of kings. A verse from the gospel of Mark flashed through my mind: “His clothes became dassling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them” pg 65.
If we look at this scripture what Todd is referring too, it says nothing of purple. This is when Jesus was transfigured (Mark 9:3). The only time Jesus had purple on was just before he was going to be crucified. Note, he was being clothed as a human King – Jesus Christ is now King of all Kings. He is not Colton’s description of a Jesus figure, which is more like a fairy-tale Jesus.
Mark 15:17 “And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head”
Mark 15:20 “And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.”
Later on in the article we will have a look at what Colton’s Jesus actually looks like – yes we have a picture.
5) Something that stuns Colton’s father into submission is the fact that Colton’s Jesus showed him his hands and feet and Colton says, “Jesus has markers” pg 65
Todd does not understand that this Jesus in Heaven is for Real is not the real Jesus Christ of the Bible; a vision and the reality of Jesus Christ really returning to earth are completely two different things. Yes when Jesus Christ returns we will see the marks of where he was nailed to the cross, but this vision of Colton’s is a vision and another Jesus. Satan can mimic anything he wants too.
6) Todd asks Colton what everyone looks like in heaven and Colton replies, “Everybody’s got wings.” pg 72 informing his father that everyone sort of looks like angels.
This is absolutely incorrect. We know from scripture that we will most probably look the same as we did on earth, but we will be perfect in every sense of the word. We also know from scripture that the resurrection of believers’ physical bodies has yet to take place, anyone who dies and is destined for Heaven, their form now in Heaven must lack physical attributes. Just to note: Some people were raised from the dead and transformed at the time of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. Matthew 27:52 says that their “bodies…were raised.” But do they have wings? No they do not. Philippians 3:21 says that Jesus “will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.” Does Jesus have wings? No he does not. We are made in the image of God according to Genesis 1:27, does God have wings? No He does not. Is Colton’s Jesus pulling this child’s leg and everyone else who believes him? Yes he is.
7) Another strange addition to our bodies in Heaven is for Real is that in heaven is a halo. Colton tells his father that, “All people have a light above their head”. pg 73 To try and persuade the reader that dear little Colton is telling the truth Todd goes on to tell us about angels in the bible and “when angels show up, they’re sometimes dazzlingly bright, blinding almost”. pg 73 He also tells us about Stephen who’s “face became as bright as an angel’s” pg 73 not long after he was stoned to death.
Hmm, and what has that got to do with people in heaven having “lights about their heads?” Nothing. Again Todd’s examples from scripture to try prove his point are ridiculous to say the least. Interestingly enough Todd does say that he actually can’t “…remember angels having lights over their heads specifically-or halos, as some would call them.” pg 74 But never the less chooses to believe his sons story as being true and goes on to tell the rest of the world a lie.
8) In Heaven is for Real, Colton meets his grandfather and his little sister in heaven. It would appear that everyone goes to Heaven because his little sister tells Colton that she can’t wait to meet her parents (Todd and Sonja) one day in heaven. What would happen if either Todd or Sonja were to reject the Gospel? Would the little sister’s hope be crushed?
Colton’s little long lost sister tells him that God (who is called Jesus’ dad) – adopts all babies that have died. Now this story of God adopting children will pull at the heartstrings of a billion mothers who have lost children through miscarriage and other tragedies. The pain of losing a child is unlike anything a parent should face. But now we have the story Heaven is for Real by the Burpo’s, tapping into the heartache of millions of women (like it did with Sonja Burpo) and blinding them into believing that the vision Colton experienced was true; that he was indeed in Heaven and that the Jesus he met was indeed the true Biblical Jesus, when we know, based on all the evidence that Colton’s experience was demonic.
Who’s on the left side?
9) Colton explains to his father that Jesus sits on the right hand side of his ‘dad’. Todd then asks who sits on the left side and Colton replies, “Oh, that’s easy, Dad, That’s where the angel Gabriel is, He is really nice”. pg 101 This is another lie. No where in the bible does it tell us who sits on the left side of God because there is no left side, only a right side.
“In (Ephesians 1:19-21) here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.”
“The term “God’s right hand” in prophecy also refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16)”
The fact that Jesus Christ is at the “right hand of God” was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was positive proof that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. This is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God’s right hand making intercession for us.
Therefore, what we can say that “God’s right hand” refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is “sitting” refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ’s enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more.” –http://www.gotquestions.org/right-hand-God.html
The Holy Spirit
10) But it get’s worse, Colton tells his father that he sat with the Holy Spirit and it was kinda hard to describe him, other than “he’s kinda blue”. Colton was sitting by the Holy Spirit (in Heaven) praying for his father because as Colton said to his dad, “You needed the Holy Spirit, so I prayed for you”. pg 102 This is a very telling statement. The bible tells us that when you become a Christian the Holy Spirit comes to abide in you.
John 14:16-18 16 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you”
Romans 8:9-11 “9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 6:19 “19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”
Todd is supposed to be a Pastor, and Todd is a professing Christian yet according to Colton’s Jesus, he does not have the Holy Spirit in him. This means that the following verses and many more applies to Todd Burpo:
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied [preached] in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
11) To make matters even worse Colton says that the Holy Spirit shoots down power to his dad when he is preaching in church, “It’s the Holy Spirit, “I watched him, He showed me”… ” He shoots down power for you when you are talking in church.” pg 126 This is totally unscriptural. Because we have proved above that the Holy Spirit abides in born again believers here on earth. The Holy Spirit does not give you power either. This Holy Spirit that Colton speaks of is false, along with it’s Jesus.
John 16:7-15 “7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.“
Rainbows in Heaven is for Real
12) Colton becomes obsessed with rainbows. Even to the point that he prays for a rainbow and one supposedly appears in the sky the following day. Todd Burbo uses the one and only scripture of Revelation 4:3 to try and backup his sons visions. “And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.”
Because we know from everything else that we have read that there is something seriously demonic regarding Colton’s visions, therefore it’s only obvious to look at New Age teaching regarding Rainbows to see what they have to say. I did an article here on the 7 Colours of the Rainbow and the 7 Chakras, please read.
This is what New Ager’s have to say about the Rainbow:
“The experience of seeing the colours of the rainbow, when the sun is shining and it has been raining, is one we all can share. The experience often has a magical quality to it as though it is stirring some deep inner response. Such is the wonder of the light that forms the colours of the rainbow.The heavenly principle is to GIVE AS WE RECEIVE. We are not intended to absorb the light of the rainbow, enlightenment, joy and happiness, rather we are intended to transmit it; and in doing so to unfold its meaning for others, and for ourselves too.” —http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow.htm
“The rainbow represents the regenerate spiritual person – one who has lived out the path of enlightenment, whose potential has opened out like the lotus flower of the east, each stage represented by a new colour developing out of the one before.
The main seven colours symbolise wholeness or holiness. There are a variety of rainbows sometimes seen around those in the spiritual realms – the rainbow of the ‘aura’, as it is sometimes called, picturing the spiritual state of the person.
Yoga teaches that there are seven centers or chakras in the human body. These are spiritual centers – you will not find them described in a materialistic medical book.” — http://www.spiritualwisdom.org.uk/colours-of-the-rainbow2.htm
Akiane and Colton Burpo’s Christ
13) In the book, Heaven is for Real, The Burpo’s were themselves totally obsessed with finding out what Colton’s Jesus looked like “…as pastor, I wound up spending a lot of time at hospitals, in Christian bookstores, and at other churches–all places where there are lots of drawings and paintings of Christ….When we came across a picture of Jesus we’d ask Colton, “What about this one? Is that what Jesus looks like?’ pg 93. Finally Todd came across information of a girl by the the name of Akiane Kramarik who too had began having visions at the age of four. And as it turns out her descriptions of Heaven appear to be the same as Colton’s – so they say. Akiane is a Prodigy and paints the most beautiful paintings, “she states that God has given her the visions and abilities to create her artwork” –– http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiane_Kramarik. One of her paintings is that of the Christ of her visions, she calls him her ‘Prince of Peace’. Colton, turned to his dad when he saw Akiane’s Jesus and said, “Dad, that one’s right.” pg 145.
What does the bible tell us:
Exodus 20:4-5 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
That applies to images of Jesus too, be it statues, or any other religious paintings, even the movies. It leads to idolatry, breeds superstition and leads to occultism. If Jesus wanted us to know what he looked like there would be a full description of Him in the bible, but He has not because we are to believe by FAITH.
Corinthians 5:7 “7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.”
1 Peter 1:8 “8 whom having not seenyou love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory”
John 20:29 “29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Therefore all and I mean all representations of Jesus are false and have no backing by scripture.
Akiane is now 16 years old, this is what she has to say about Jesus,
“Jesus shared with us: ‘I am the way, the truth and the light. No one comes to my Father, but through me.’ I feel that he invited us to participate in the divinity. Each of us is one of kind [ sic ] original path to the way of truth and light, and without our individual love and effort we cannot understand and reach God” [Emphasis added] — http://akiane.com/blog/?tag=akiane.
She rejects Jesus as being the only way for mankind to be reconciled to God. She opposes what Jesus Christ taught in favor of Satan’s promise of divinity to Eve in Genesis:3:5. Akiane has clearly met another Jesus and if Colton’s Jesus looks the same as Akiane’s then we can be certain that Colton’s Jesus is anti-Christ too.
14) Besides all the other unbiblical nonsense that Colton saw in his ‘trip to Heaven’ that was penned down in his book Heaven is for Real, the one that will bring fear into people the most is the one where he speaks of the coming war. “There’s going to be a war, and it’s going to destroy this world. Jesus and the angels and the good people are going to fight against Satan and the monsters and the bad people. I saw it”. pg 136 Colton tells his father that he saw his father fighting in the war too, fighting for Jesus who wins the war in the end. The problem with this eschatological view (the study of the end times) is that it’s wrong. The Body of Christ (Church) are ‘raptured’ to Heaven before the Tribulation starts. The ‘church’ that remains is but the false church of the antiChrist – the Roman Catholic church who have it as their mission to take over Jerusalem for themselves. The time of the 7 year tribulation is for Israel – and everything will happen in Israel. God turns back to Israel as he seals 144,000 Jewish witness to do the preaching instead of gentiles along with the 2 witnesses mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Anyone who professes Jesus Christ as their saviour will be beheaded. The time of the Tribulation is for God’s Wrath upon the earth. God deals with mankind and the anti-Christ very severely – but will mankind repent? No. If Todd Burpo is still going to be on earth during the Tribulation according to Colton’s vision he has then missed the ‘Blessed Hope’. (Titus 2:13)
See all these articles on the rapture here: Rapture, Caught Up, The First Resurrection
Colton is the new Jesus.
15) Colton’s babysitter, Ali, one night hears Colton’s story regarding his sister in heaven and that he missed her terribly. Ali, shocked at his story ends up crying her heart out. She is deeply touched. Ali had grown up in a Christian home but had entertained doubts regarding her faith, for e.g., not knowing if all religions lead to the same God or not. “But Colton’s story about his sister strengthened her Christian faith” pg 130
So Colton’s story is more impressive than anything the Bible could offer. Even though the Bible is TRUE and Colton’s story is not. Satan loves to use emotions to tug at the heartstrings of unsuspecting victims. And he is bargaining on you not going to the Bible to check to see if what he is telling you is true or not. And the longer you refrain from testing these evil spirits, the deeper and deeper you are pulled into deception through more false teaching, until you are completely swallowed up with no where to go.
Paul’s Rapture, John’s Prophecies and Lazarus and the Rich Man:
16) On page 80 of Heaven is for Real, Todd tells us about the Apostle Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth in 2 Corinthians 12 about a man he knew personally (obviously, Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. And Todd also tells us about the Apostle John who had an angel appear to him and he penned a number of prophecies and described Heaven in great detail. Todd then quotes scripture from the Book of Revelation
Revelation 4:1-3 “1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.”
Basically Todd is trying to convince the reader that Colton’s vision is equal to that of Paul and John, but if Todd was a genuine Christian Pastor he would know the following:
“If I told you that I had recently visited there and only communicated what I knew was recorded in the Bible about it, you couldn’t object to what I said on the basis of my being biblically inaccurate. Accuracy, however, is not the only criterion for biblical discernment. There are many other instructions and examples that we must take into consideration. For example, the Apostle Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 12 of a “man in Christ” (no doubt Paul himself) who was caught up to Heaven. He didn’t know at the time whether it was an experience in which his spirit had left his body, or a vision while his spirit remained in his body. Nevertheless, he states that what he saw and heard in paradise was not lawful for a man to utter. Paul’s experience was followed by a humbling infirmity, which he states that God allowed him to suffer “lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations…“ (2 Corinthians:12:6-7)
That isn’t always the case in Scripture. The Apostle John obviously was given permission to declare what he witnessed in Heaven in the Book of Revelation. This would seemingly apply as well to the writer of the Book of Job.
But can we be sure that the visions and personal experiences of these writers are true? Absolutely–because their words are found in the Scriptures . Of the Word of God, the psalmist writes, “Thy word is true from the beginning…,” and Jesus said, “Thy word is truth” (Psalm:119:160; John:17:17). That is the ultimate verification that the experiences of those men of God indeed took place as they described. Furthermore, since the canon of Scripture was closed in the first century A.D., no one since that time can have his vision of-or his alleged visit to–Heaven validated in the same way.
Jesus gave us another insight to help our discernment when He told of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man, who had died, was in a place where he was tormented and suffering remorse. Yet he begged Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers so that they would not end up with him in “this place of torment.” Abraham’s response was: “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” And again, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead“ (Luke:16:19-31) [Emphasis added] — http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/search-the-scriptures-daily/read/articles/is-heaven-is-for-real-for-real-an-exercise-in-discernment-13365.html
Todd Burpo’s deceptive faith:
17) On page 62, Todd Burpo was still trying to come to terms with Colton’s story, he said, “If Colton really had a supernatural encounter, I certainly didn’t want to ask him leading questions. We had taught Colton about our faith all his life. But if he really had seen Jesus and the angels, I wanted to become the student, not the teacher!”
Todd himself would appear to be duped and does not approve in proper biblical testing as per 1 John 4:1-6. He instead says that we must “be willing to accept reality and to call things what they are even when it is hard”. pg 75 So even though Colton’s story might be a bit hard to swallow, just believe it with childlike faith.
Todd also wanted to become a student of a 4 year old child instead of taking instruction from Jesus Christ (The Word of God). Is a 4 year old child now more truthful than the Word of God? The Bible says:
2 Timothy 3:15-17 “17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”
Proverbs 30:5 (Amp) “5Every word of God is tried and purified; He is a shield to those who trust and take refuge in Him.”
18) On page 82 of Heaven is for Real, we are told that “Roman Catholics practice confession as a sacrament, sharing their sins and shortcomings with a priest. Protestants practice confession too, though a little less formally, often confiding in God without an intermediary.” When I started reading this book I kept my eyes peeled for the Roman Catholic connection and was not really surprised when it showed up.
1) Catholics practice confession, genuine Christians do no not practice confession. Christians ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sin. 2) Confession and asking for forgiveness (repenting) is two different things. 3) The statement by Todd that he confides to “God without an intermediary” is very concerning for the bible says,
1 Tim 2:5 “5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus“
Todd prays to the Holy Spirit.
19) He says, “I breathed a ‘prayer of thanks’ to the Holy Spirit, who had clearly “shot down power,” giving me an answer for this grieving woman…” pg 146 Well we know that Todd lacks Jesus Christ as an intermediary, so he needs a new substitute; the holy spirit (lower case because it’s a false spirit)
No where in the bible are we told to pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Jesus Christ the Son of God.
John 14:26 “26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
John 16:14 “14 Jesus speaking of the Holy Spirit said, “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you“
The bible does tell us the following about the Holy Spirit regarding prayer:
Romans 8:26 “26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Jude 1:20 “…build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.”
Scripture suggests that we pray “in the Holy Spirit”, which means we permit the Holy Spirit to guide our prayers and give us the right words to say, and during times when we don’t know what to say, the Holy Spirit automatically prays on our behalf with words that cannot be uttered, because He knows exactly what we need. This new idea that we pray to the Holy Spirit is a New Age concept – The false New Age holy spirit represents the 6th Chakra or the Third Eye.
When we pray, we can pray to God our Heavenly Father – Psalm 5:2 “Listen to my cry for help, my King and my God, for to you I pray”. To the Lord Jesus Christ, we pray as to the Father because they are equal. Or you can pray to our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ – it does not matter, what ever makes you happy. Prayer to one member of the Trinity is prayer to all, because all three are One. Stephen, when he was being martyred, prayed – Acts 7:59 “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit” . We are also to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul said, that we are always give – Ephesians 5:20 “thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” . There is no fixed rule, to add a rule on how to address God is wrong.
Jesus Christ’s crucifixion
20) On page 149 in Heaven is for Real, Todd makes the most unbelievable statement regarding Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, he says, “The scripture says that as Jesus gave up his spirit, as he sagged there, lifeless on that Roman cross, God the Father turn his back. I am convinced that he did that because if he had kept on watching, he couldn’t have gone through with it” This kind of thinking is very similar to a man by the name of John Dominic Crossan’s (Jesus Seminar), who has had a great influence the Emergent church:
“If we are to believe that God deliberately sent his only son into the world to be brutally tortured and crucified, then I take that to be transcendental child abuse, and I will not have it.” — John Dominic Crossan, Speech at Duke University Conference on “Jesus in Context: Who Was He?”, February 19-21, 1998
For the undiscerning reader reading this book and does not understand the crucifixion, let me please explain so that you may know the truth and nothing but the truth, because you are not going to get it from Todd Burpo.
Isaiah 53:10 “10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. “
“And about the ninth hour Jesus “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46. This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1.
Isaiah 53:4-5 tells us that Jesus “bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” and Galatians 3:13 tells us “He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us”.
In those awful moments on the cross, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” and 1 John 2:2 “2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” – and because of that God had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.
But then Jesus cried out from the cross, when Jesus uttered those words, John 19:30 “It is Finished” He was declaring the debt by mankind (the debt of sin) owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.
The Catholic connection.
21) One of the biggest warning signs today for a genuine Christian is to note any Roman Catholic connection. Todd says on page 152 in Heaven is for Real, “A lot of our Catholic friends have asked whether Colton saw Mary, the mother of Jesus. The answer to that is also yes. He saw Mary kneeling before the throne of God and at times, standing besides Jesus. “She still loves him like a mom”. The Roman Catholic Church is spoken off in the book of Revelation as:
Revelation 17:4-6 “4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.”
The Catholic Mary (Queen of Heaven) is non other than a demonic goddess posing as Jesus’ mother. “The Queen of Heaven in the bible is a Babylonian goddess whom people worshiped. She has been incarnated to Roman Catholicism under the name ‘Mary’, Mary-Queen of Heaven. Many Catholics would deny that Mary worship is part of Catholicism but unfortunately this is not true as she holds a special place in the hearts of many.” — Please read more on Mary Queen of Heaven – Whore of Babylon
Jeremiah 7:18 (Amp) “18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!
Conclusion:
As you can see from the heaps of evidence above that was taken directly from Heaven is for Real that the ‘altered states of consciousness’ that Colton experienced was not genuine. Why? Is is due to his fathers sin of following after false doctrines. Have the Burpo’s delved into things, i.e, contemplative spirituality, that they should have not been delving into. Is this story even a lie? What ever it is, one thing is very clear, the story is not true, and if you choose to follow after this false Jesus with a pink stone in his crown and a pink pony, you will be following after a New Age Jesus. The bible says:
2 Timothy 4:1-5 “1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”
J
Do you know what your own church teaches with regard to Mary? Here are some things your own church fathers said and some of the prayers the Catholic Church teaches you to pray to Mary.
Have you placed your eternal salvation in Mary’s hands and have you entrusted your soul to her? If you had, you can’t be saved because the Bible says there is only One Saviour. Mary must be omnipresent to be able to protect every single Roman Catholic (an estimated 1.2 billion) at the same time. That would make her God, wouldn’t it? The fact that you believe you will perish in hell if your were to neglect to call in prayer on her, proves without any doubt that you worship her. You seem to be completely ignorant of what your church teaches. I urge you to get out and flee for your life before its too late.
I have heard everything now. How sad a take away from such misguided and distorted perceptions.
Such a misread does not even justify nor dignify a rebuttal so I have nothing further to add nor even care to do so.
PS Yes Satin is alive as is well demonstrated in such readings and takeaways.
You keep quoting Jeremiah. I read those chapters and no where does it say anything about Mary. It says not to worship false gods. We Catholics only worship God as I have previously explained in great detail. As for that line about the “queen of heaven” in Jeremiah – that was a goddess (the Moon) that the pagans worshiped. They were worshiping the Moon, a false god. And if you insist that it refers to Mary then can I ask who came up with that interpretation? Did you? If not you, then do you know by whom and in what year that idea came to be? As I previously explained the Sacred Scriptures can’t be interpreted by anyone and everyone or else there would be chaos. How would you know who has the right interpretation?
Again, we don’t believe that if we don’t pray to Mary we will go to hell. That is you misinterpreting the the devotions that the Saints had to Mary.
How can Mary be omnipresent to every Catholic? Mary is in Heaven. Heaven is not bound to the laws of time and space. Also, anything is possible with God. Are you doubting God’s power?
Acts 8: 30-31 “And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?” – And so Philip, (a Bishop of the Church), explains.
And yes I use the the Douay-Rheims version because it is approved by Christ’s Church. Who approved the Bible you read? How do you know it’s the right version? Where in the Bible does it tell you what version of the Bible is the correct one?
Also, I’m not adding anything to the Bible. I am showing what is passed on through Tradition. (which, again, I explained in detail)
Also, Mary was conceived without original sin as Joey (thank you) wonderfully explained.
“Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it” Um, that’s right, who kept the word of God better than Mary? That’s not a put down to Mary that’s a pat on the back if you ask me.
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” – God is Mary’s saviour. He redeemed her by a special Grace – a sort of pre-conceived redemption if you will.
Imagine you are walking and there is a snake on the path ahead of you that you don’t see. Now say you get bitten (sin) and you are going to die but then this guy comes out of nowhere and picks you up, carries you to his car, and drives you to the hospital and you are saved in the nick of time. Clearly this guy saved your life. Now take the same example but this time the guy pops up right before you come upon the snake and pulls you back so you don’t get bitten. Well as you can see, this guy clearly saved you either way.
So it is with Mary.
How can we be deceived by the Church? Matt 16: 18 – “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” If the Church was teaching error then that would mean the gates of hell have prevailed. And that would mean that Jesus was a lier. If the Catholic Church is not the true Church then which one is?
Luke: 10:16 “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
If you do not hear the words of Church than you are not hearing Christ.
Please remember that I am not writing all this to try and “out do you” or to say I’m better than you or that I think you are going to hell or anything like that. I write this because you and all others need to know the Truth. If you choose not to believe than I can do nothing and will leave it up to God. May our Blessed Mother watch over you and lead you to her Son.
Peace and God Bless
– Aaron
Aaron,
How many queens are there in heaven? Jeremiah 7 and 44 speak of only one. Or are there more than one of whom the others, besides Mary, are all pagan idols. Fancy that, idols in heaven? You must be joking.
You wrote:
If Mary is omnipresent because she is in heaven and outside the bounds of the laws of time and space, then all the saints who are already in heaven are also omnipresent. Is Mary only omnipresent or is she also omniscient and omnipotent? She must be all three, according to your faith, because if she’s not then she cannot be omnipresent because all three the “omnis” go together. You cannot have the one and not the other. If she is all three, then she must be God and if she is God, then you are worshiping her as God. That’s blasphemy. You cannot say you do not worship Mary when you attribute to her the things that only belong to God.
You wrote:
The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and also that the sin of one man (Adam) passed onto all Adam’s and Eve’s descendants, including Mary. (Romans 5:12). If Mary was conceived without original sin (that was passed on by Adam and Eve onto all humankind), she must have been sinless and therefore in no need of a Saviour. Consequently her prayer in Luke 1 was a lie. Why would she admit that Jesus was her Saviour when she was as sinless as He?
You wrote:
Had it not been that the Church of Rome has abused it, and applied it to what was never intended, no other interpretation would have been sought for. “Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable for the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honored; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.” This was accomplished. See Acts 2:14-36, where he first preached to the Jews, and Acts 10, where he preached the gospel to Cornelius and his neighbors, who were Gentiles. Peter had thus the honor of laying the foundation of the church among the Jews and Gentiles; and this is the plain meaning of this passage. See also Gal 2:9. But Christ did not mean, as the Roman Catholics say he did, to exalt Peter to supreme authority above all the other apostles, or to say that he was the only one upon whom he would rear his church. See Acts 15, where the advice of James, and not that of Peter, was followed. See also Gal 2:11, where Paul withstood Peter to his face, because he was to be blamed – a thing which could not have happened if Christ (as the Roman Catholics say) meant that Peter was absolute and infallible. More than all, it is not said here, or anywhere else in the Bible, that Peter would have infallible successors who would be the vicegerents of Christ and the head of the church. The whole meaning of the passage is this: “I will make you the honored instrument of making known my gospel first to Jews and Gentiles, and I will make you a firm and distinguished preacher in building my church.”
Five verses later (Matthew 16:23) Jesus called Peter Satan.
I really and truly do not need your or the RCC’s so-called truth because it is NOT the truth.
Jeremiah only speaks of 1 because like I said before, he is talking about the moon goddess that the pagans worshipped at the time. Idols in heaven? Yeah, the pagans believed in a lot of gods in the heavens (“sky”, “space”). Your point holds no ground.
Did you know that in the ancient times of the Jews, a king’s mother was considered the queen. Jesus was a Jew and the King of Heaven and Earth, therefore His Mother is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Simple as that. a queen’s position and title do not lessen or infringe upon the king’s position and rule. common sense stuff here.
omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. All 3 have to go together? Says who? If God wants to allow Mary to be present to everyone who are you to decide if God can do that or not? Again, are you questioning God’s power?
Remember, Mary can do nothing without God. Just as it wasn’t by St. Peter’s own power that allowed him to walk on water or the cure people, it was through the Power of God. So if God allows Mary to be everywhere at once then that’s for God to decide, not you. You keep thinking we believe that Mary is doing all this by her own power. But that’s not what we believe as I’ve explained time and time again. That’s is just you wanting to believe that.
Joey and I have already explained how Mary WAS saved AND was conceived without sin. You obviously didn’t read it.
As for the Church, St. Peter and the Popes.
The Holy Spirit, through the Catholic Church, teaches that a Pope is infallible in regards to Faith and Morals. That is a Pope can never declare as doctrine something that is incorrect or full of errors. This does not mean that a Pope is sinless or can’t do bad things. He is a sinner like the rest of us. Just as St Peter sometimes did things wrong. But St. Peter nor any other Pope in History has ever led the Church astray when it came to Teachings on Faith and Morals. That is the promise of Christ when he talks about the gates of hell not prevailing. And like I said before. How do you know that your interpretation of that passage is correct? Where does it say in the Bible that we all can interpret the Bible? If that is the case and we all can interpret the Bible then that would conclude that all of our interpretation must be fine. If you are correct and I am correct then why does it matter to you what anyone else believes? You should be happy that we are all interpreting the Bible. Do you see why we need the Church to be the one to determine the correct interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures?
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Pro 14:12)
That’s right. Don’t you see that that is what you are doing? You, a man, are saying “this way seems right to me”, But we need the Church, Established by Christ and Guided by the Holy Spirit to show us the way.
And finally, this will be my final response as I see this is going now where. You do not seem to understand the basic logic that I am trying to show. I guess sometimes you just have to walk away.
“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them.”
I tried and now it is up to God to open you mind and heart.
Peace and God Bless
– Aaron
Aaron wrote:
You’re so right! The queen of heaven was/is a pagan idol. Mother and child worship began in ancient Babylon with Semiramis and Tammuz, her son, and spread to all the nations and cultures throughout the world. The queen of heaven is mentioned only five times in terms of idolatry in Jeremiah and never again in the rest of the Bible. The nearest reference to the queen of heaven in the New Testament, although she is not referred to as the queen of heaven, is Revelation 17:5, “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev 17:5). The point I am making is that when the Bible refers to the queen of heaven it always does so in the context of idolatry.
For you to prove that the other Queen of Heaven is not an idol, you will have to come up with some verses where the Bible speaks favourably of the Queen of Heaven. The Bible never refers to Mary as the Queen of Heaven in so many words. Not even your Bible, the Douay-Rheims refers to Mary as the Queen of Heaven.
You wrote:
Common sense and a true understanding of the Bible proves that your common sense is insipidly wrong. First of all, kings and queens were never part and parcel of the Jewish nation. It was a pagan tradition. In fact, God never wanted a king or a queen to rule over Israel. He wanted them to revere, honour and worship Him as their King and supreme Sovereign.
To want anyone else to be your king and queen (in the spiritual realm) is not only a gross sin but an outright rejection of God.
You wrote:
Omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are all attributes that belong to God alone. Together with his holiness, these are the attributes that make us want to worship Him and it is for this reason that He will never give these attributes to anyone else, including Mary. Let alone Peter.
Walking on water and healing the sick has very little to do with omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. Even the devil is capable of doing miracles and healing the sick.
You wrote:
Your explanation is anti-Bible. Show me a single verse in Scripture that says Mary was conceived without sin.
You wrote:
One of your own infallible Popes confessed that the Popes were a bunch of heretics.
Now you tell me, who was the truly infallible Pope here – Adrian VI or all the other Popes? Pope Adrian VI’s declaration goes even further. If many popes have been heretics, then we have another reason why there cannot be an unbroken line of “apostolic succession back to Peter.” Besides proving that a person is not infallible, espousing heresy is a mortal sin in Roman Catholic theology. Its immediate consequence, so says the official Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law (a codification of the canons and decrees of the Church councils) is instant and automatic excommunication. A heretic has denied the faith and placed himself outside the Church.
A heretical pope is therefore no longer even a member of the Church, much less its head.
You wrote:
Unfortunately your basic logic excludes everything the Bible teaches. That’s dangerous, very dangerous.
“Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.” Because who hears the word of God and keeps it better than Mary? Jesus Christ knew no one kept/keeps Gods word in Her Heart better than Mary His Mother. Again, Jesus Christ is Praising His Mother Mary even better than the woman above, and knowingly so.
You have no idea the power of Our Blessed Mother. She has the power to save souls, how. Simply by asking! Do you not see the importance of the wedding? It is not yet my time. Think of it as God’s Plan and it was not time for him to begin working miracles. Yet, our Lord cannot deny his mother. And even though it is not yet time, he did it anyway. Now in heaven, what would our Lord say to his mother if she was to say, please do not cast that soul into hell… He will refuse his mother nothing.
I know my Church’s teachings and they do not contradict the bible. Your interpretations do. It is you however that is ignorant of my faith and that of Our Lord. And even if you do not feel that Mary deserves that respect, she is still the mother of Jesus (GOD MAN) and even that deserves gratitude.
Do you not honor Moses, Abraham, or any of the disciples? Of course you do, yet the one person that carried our Savior in her womb deserves nothing from you. She is the Ark of the Covenant. She carried the Work of God, the Teachings of God, and the Bread of Life and you dare say I need to flee. I run -to our Mother for in her is our salvation, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Yes, I run to my Blessed Mother!!
As for my incorrect bible, does it matter who crushed the serpents head. Why did God put Enmities between her seed if she was not important? God did this and you deny her. If you deny her, than you deny Christ. If she didn’t crush the serpents head, she bore the one that could, so even indirectly she crushed it. The oldest translated bible is the Douay-Rheims Bible. Before Luther corrupted it by removing books that contradicted his beliefs, his ideas, his misinterpretations or Calvinist who added other books because he didn’t fully agree with Luther.
Historically, and this is FACT: No Church other than the Catholic Church can trace their origins to Christ. All other faiths -protestant faiths can only trace their beginnings to their founders and even they had to use the Catholic Bible to do so. There were no Lutherans when Christ was resurrected, no Baptist, or Mormons… etc. None were there during Pentecost. Not only were they not around but they weren’t around for 1600 hundred years. Every church is a break from the truth. That is fact. “I am the good shepherd and I know mine and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice and there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD.” John 10:14.
Joey J
Is this your religion? Blessed are they that kiss the Qur’an.
Is this your religion? Blessed are those who deny that Christianity is a religion of the Book (Bible)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbzRD01kMks
Is this your religion? Blessed are those Catholics who convert to Islam.
Is this your religion? Blessed are the Popes who encourage people to find their hope in the Qur’an
http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/pope-francis-encouraged-muslims-to-find-hope-in-the-quran-11-things-to-know-and-share/
My point that a man can err, but when speaking for the church…. He is infallable.
People make mistakes. JPII was trying to teach peace. He forgot that Jesus came to bring a sword. Though he is my Pope and I respect the position as it is a gift from our Father in heaven, however this was mistake. If he on the other hand spoke in behalf of the church, the outcome would have been totally different.
Are all protestants perfect? Is your pastor perfect? Do you read perfect? Are you going to tell me that everyone is perfect in your belief? I think not. Everyone sins… A just man sins seven times a day. That is a given. But do not mistake the err of a man as the err of the church. Regardless of his actions, the truth is still the truth and God’s Church is still here.
Dear Thomas,
I know Christ died for you as well as for me. I read most of the article and comments. I am a devout Roman Catholic.
Aside from everything my fellow brothers have tried to explain and have so wonderfully witnessed, I would like to point out only a few things additionally.
First, St. Paul is very clear that “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13
You say you don’t hate anyone, let alone Catholics. Do you measure your words? Same goes for your friend Deborah. And MANY have pointed this out to you both. It’s not enough to say you don’t hate: YOU MUST PREACH THE GOSPEL WITH LOVE. Do you love Catholics, even if you do not agree with us? If not then you match the verse I quoted above. I love Protestants, in fact my girlfriend is one of them. And I have many Protestant friends whom I love very much despite I disagree with them on certain things of Faith. Jesus prayed on the cross to the Father to forgive those crucifying, rejecting Him, for they did not know what they were doing. Jesus loves those who crucified Him. We ALL must do the same with who “crucifies” us, reject us and so forth. And by the way, just because someone is rude and disrespectful to you it doesn’t mean you can be to them and scorn them off.
Another thing: you seldom reply directly to the quotes people challenge you with. It’s fine to quote something else (often out of context as people have already pointed out to you many times), but you need to give reasonable explanations to THOSE quotes you believe are being misinterpreted. It’s too easy to go off and find some other quote in the Bible that SEEMS to say something contradictory to the quotes you’re challenged with (or, rather, according to you, the interpretation of your challengers). You have to tell me how YOU interpret those quotes. How do you interpret the quotes on Our Blessed Mother (mine and YOURS as well, despite you rejecting her)? How do you explain the angel kneeling to her? What does full of Grace mean to you? Has anyone else in the Bible been called “full of Grace”? Why do you think that just because we call her Queen of Heaven that must mean she identifies with the whore of Babylon spoken in Revelation? Prove that. How do you then explain her being full of Grace and the the whore of Babylon at the same time? We are not revering any woman-like figure in heaven that you can associate to the whore of Babylon in Revelation, we revere and love the Mother of Jesus! Be that clear to you. We love the Mother of Jesus as we can very well be sure He loves her as well. How do you measure up to that?
Thomas you must be reasonable. Don’t apply a narrow vision just because you believe that we have been deceived. Are you implying that NOTHING we believe in is true? We believe in Jesus Christ Our ONLY Savior.
For the sake of your presupposed “orthodoxy” of Faith, you are replying to people telling them what’s right and what is not, instead of simply witnessing your Faith. You quote the Bible, yet you don’t live what you quote because you don’t try to be welcoming and understanding (which doesn’t mean you have to agree with people). Jesus met with many people disagreeing with Him but he only was tough with the Pharisees because of the hardness of their hearts. We don’t have hard hearts, we love the Lord as much as you do.
How do you expect people to follow your witness when you are everything but attractive in your ways?
I leave you with one last thought. You seem to know some beautiful prayers to Our Blessed Mother. That is for me a sign of hope, that you may one day use them. Remember, should that day come for you, that you are NOT praying to a goddess. But that you’re simply asking Mary to talk to Jesus in your favor, so that He may have mercy on your soul.
God bless you Thomas. I’ll pray for you. Please pray for me, for I do not doubt your good intentions.
Dario
Joey J
If man can err, as you admit, how do you kjnow he is not erring when speaking for the church? What is your benchmark to know for certain that he is not erring?
You wrote:
Really??? Is that the way to teach peace? Kiss a book that denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died on a cross. That’s a very strange way to promote peace. It sounds more like the Antichrist and his way of promoting a false peace.
You wrote:
This is not about being perfect. It’s about proclaiming the truth. PJII deliberately and willfully kissed the Qu’ran because he believed that being infallible he was doing the right thing. imperfection does not withhold you from knowing and proclaiming the Truth. What about the present Pope who also reveres the Qu’ran? Is he not infallible and always correct when he speaks for the church?
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8)
Dario wrote:
If you really believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, why do you attribute every single divine attribute that belongs to God alone to Mary?
In order for your and my sins to be forgiven so that we may receive eternal life through faith alone in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross, He had to be sinless. In fact, only an infinitely sinless and spotless God could pay an infinitely great ransom for all of mankind, including Mary. The entire sacrificial system in Leviticus points to this truth. Only a spotless lamb or heifer could be offered for the sins of the people in Israel.
Do these sacrifices also refer to the spotless and sinless conception of Mary?
And yet your church claims that Mary was sinless because she was miraculously preserved from original sin at her conception. As early as 1854 Pius IX had sent up a papal infallibility trial balloon. It was well-received by the Church because it involved the ever popular “Virgin Mary.” On his own initiative—by his own authority and standing alone without any Council or the magisterium supporting him—Pius IX pronounced as a dogma that all Catholics must accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary: that she was “in the first instant of her conception … preserved free from all stain of original sin….” It was, in effect, a declaration of his own infallibility—that he did not need the support of the bishops or a Council but could define such binding dogmas on his own. This in itself is an outright denial of the necessity of Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross and an infamous declaration that He did not die for Mary in particular. Even your corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible declares that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22). Your immediate reaction, I assume, would be “Oh, that’s not true, He did die on the cross for Mary as well.” Well, if He died for Mary as well and if He died for sinners, why do you persist in the lie that Mary was sinless?
Ah, but of course, your answer comes from the corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible again. In the Catholic translation of the Bible (Douay Rheims) it reads in Luke 1:28 “ the angel said to her: Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.” Unanimously in all the other translations which are from the Greek, not the Latin. They instead say, “Rejoice, highly favored one the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women.” At first we notice she is blessed among women not exalted above them. She is chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, not men. The word for grace is what is being disputed. Roman Catholics state that this grace is a special measure to Mary only, but this does not fit the Biblical record. This word in the Greek is Kechari tomene (a perfect participle in the verb form, an omega verb) it means the one who God has graced, to give undue favor; only sinful people need God’s grace. She is being chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, favoured above all the daughters of the house of David to be the mother of the Messiah in the flesh. This refers to one who is a recipient of God’s favor, not the source of grace. This word for grace is from the root word Charitoo in Ephesians 1:6 it is also used of the believers in that church, “graced us.” A. T. Robertson, the Greek scholar states it is a late verb charitoo (from charis, grace), in the New Testament attracted to case of antecedent charitos only here and Luke 1:28 (Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament).
This term is also used of Stephen in Acts 6:8 yet no one would claim that he too is without original sin. This is the same used for all who have been graced by God. Mary was no different in this respect. It was grace given to her to conceive without the aid of man and care for Jesus.
The later part of Luke 1:28 “blessed art thou among women.” according to Strong’s concordance are inserted words; This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.) V.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.” This grace means endued with special honor: she was honored with the blessing to birth the Messiah. Again this is the same word for grace as to believers in the New Testament. Where does it say the virgin will be without sin? It doesn’t, it does not say she is sinless but full of Grace which really is highly favored. If full of grace means without sin then what of the grace given to believers, God’s grace is promised to all the believers collectively? Mary didn’t have grace from birth but when she was going to be with child. But the Catholic Church insists Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception Catechism of the Catholic Church, 490-492).
If Mary was sinless, it must of necessity follow that she did not die. The wages of sin is death, not so? (Romans 6:23). So how did the RCC circumvent this problem? But of course, through the doctrine of the miraculous assumption of Mary into heaven. If Mary ascended to heaven like Jesus, this incredible act of someone raised in a resurrection or never dying would certainly be recorded in Scripture. Yet it is suspiciously omitted from John’s writings, the one who she was entrusted to be looked after by Jesus. John’s last book the Revelation was written 85-90 A.D. Neither John nor any historian of the early church records this. This is an unknown doctrinal event that evolved until it was ratified in 1854. Roman Catholic tradition has made speculation into doctrine with Mary being guarded from actual sin by becoming sinless. This concept was around from about the twelfth century, and was developed into a papal decree of December 8, 1854. On November 1, 1950, the bull Munificentissimus Deus declared the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. This dogma asserts “that the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, when the course of her life was finished, was taken up, body and soul, into the glory of heaven” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 32 [1950], pp. 753-73).
Where does Scripture say Mary is perfect (sinless) in her body without a resurrection? The resurrection is the very event we need to become sinless. Mary’s body rests in the ground with the rest of the saints waiting for the resurrection. There are no personal raptures until the first resurrection occurs. That will be when the whole church both the living and the dead are transformed and raised.
Mary waited in the upper room for the Holy Spirit with the rest of the apostles and disciples. Mary was not numbered among the apostles nor is she exalted in any way above their ministry as the 12 pillars of the churches foundation. She is not mentioned in heaven as the apostles are the foundation for the new Jerusalem. Nowhere do we find the apostles conferring with Mary in doctrine. Nor are there any miracles attributed to her as are with the apostles.
Despite the fact that the Bible tells us that Jesus alone was sinless and could therefore pay a ransom for the salvation of sinners, and despite the fact that nowhere in the entire Bible does it tell us that Mary was taken into heaven without dying, you still insist that you do not worship Mary. Your deification of Mary is nothing short of worship. And don’t tell me that you do not deify her. If you don’t then you must admit that she was a sinner as much as anyone else and that her decayed body still lies in her grave (she was not taken into heaven without dying).
Philip Schaff lists seven Roman bishops who rejected her sinlessness (The Creeds of Christendom [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998], Vol. I, p. 123).
Pope Leo 1 (440 a.d.) “The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born immaculate”(sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.).
“And therefore in the general ruin of the entire human race there was but one remedy in the secret of the Divine plan which could succour the fallen, and that was that one of the sons of Adam should be born free and innocent of original transgression, to prevail for the rest both by His example and His merits. Still further, because this was not permitted by natural generation, and because there could be no offspring from our faulty stock without seed, of which the Scripture saith, ‘’Who can make a clean thing conceived of an unclean seed? is it not Thou who art alone?’” (Sermon 28:3) The unclean seed includes Mary. The one being from Adam who is sinless is Jesus – Pope Gelasius (492 a.d.)
“ It belongs alone to the immaculate lamb to have no sin at all.” (Gellasii papae dicta, vol. 4, col 1241, Paris, 1671)
Pope innocent the third (1216 a.d.) “She (Eve) was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin, she (Mary) was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin.” ( De festo Assump., sermon 2) When the Immaculate Conception was first presented in the year 1140 it was opposed by Bernard of Clairvaux also Thomas Aquinas adamantly taught Mary was a sinner. This is something the Catholics need to deal with.
In fact this whole doctrine is fairly new not an apostolic tradition. It was in 1547, at the council of Trent that the Catholic Church announced the sinlessness of Mary enabling her to avoid venial sins. In 1620 Pope Paul the 5th forbade anything contrary to the teaching of Mary’s Immaculate Conception to be said publicly under threat of excommunication. In 1622 Pope Gregory the 15th forbade any contradictory statements of her immaculate conception to be made in private. And so began the official elevation of this servant woman the mother of the humanity of the Lord. Until Pope Pius IX in 1854 “Let all the children of the Catholic Church … Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without original sin”), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was becauseshe was unable to sin.” Then in 1950 Pius the 12th said, “Mary the immaculate perpetual virgin mother of God after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”
One can only wonder what great revelation awaits this church after the year 2,000 and beyond. I don’t think we will have much to guess at!
“I desire to be the bond between you and the Heavenly Father – your mediatrix” the Virgin Mary tells visionary Mirjana Dragicevic-Soldo. Playing into the petitions for the Pope to declare Mary “Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate” in a fifth and final Marian dogma, it is only the second time for 30 years of apparitions the word appears in a Medjugorje message.
You are worshiping a false Jesus who cannot save.
Your church has cursed me and many others for believing that salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone and NOT by works.
Dario wrote,
You have a very strange view of what love is. Of course I love Catholics. Why do you think I am warning you about the mortal errors in your church’s soteriology? What would you do if you noticed your children were bound for destruction on a path of drugs, sex and a promiscuous lifestyle? Wouldn’t you do anything in your power to stop them or at least warn them?
To preach THE GOSPEL OF LOVE you necessarily always need to point out mortal errors in anyone’s soteriology and to warn people against those who proclaim these errors. Surely, you must know that Paul continuously warned his brethren and others against false teachers and their doctrines. Indeed, he was practicing true love.
Was Paul being rude and disrespectful when he said these words? Hardly!
Yes, Jesus prayed for sinners while he was on the cross because He did not want them to fall into error. In fact, He also warned against false doctrines and its teachers.
Yes Jesus loved those who crucified Him because it was not his will that they should perish. He also prayed the following prayer.
Guess what, the Word to which He refers never once mentions that Mary was sinless and was taken up into heaven without dying. What does that tell you? It tells you that it cannot be the truth because God’s Word (the Bible) is the truth and it does not contain anything of the sort.
Is warning others being rude and disrespectful? I don’t think so.
In fact, God says that if we do not warn others their blood will be on our hands.
Dario wrote:
I have already dealt with your corrupt Bible’s rendition of Luke 1:28. All the other Bible translations do not use the words “full of grace.” If the term “full of grace” was so special that only Jesus and Mary were called “full of grace” why was Stephen also called “full of grace” in Acts 6:8? Surely, you should then also direct your prayers to him because he was also “full of grace” and quite capable to dispense grace. Ah, but he was not conceived without sin and neither was he taken into heaven without dying? If so, then why was he called “full of grace?”
Mary is no longer Jesus’ mother. She was his mother in the flesh on earth and that’s it. This is what your RCC Douay-Rheims Bible states:
If we are to regard Jesus no longer after the flesh, why should we regard Mary after the flesh? There’s nothing wrong in loving Mary or any other saint in heaven and on earth for that matter. We are commanded to love even our worst enemies. However, I do not attribute to any of the saints what you attribute to Mary – sinlessness, immaculate conception, deathless assumption into heaven etc. That’s not merely love but worship.
The whore of Babylon is NOT the Mary of the Bible. She is the Mary of the Roman Catholic Church who was first conceived in Babylon with Semiramis and her son, Tammuz. You are merely perpetuating the idolatry that started in Babylon and I would like to see you repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the so-called Gospel of a bunch of so-called infallible pontiffs.
Dario wrote:
It is not what you believe that saves. It is HOW you believe.
Even the devil and his angels believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If he hadn’t he would never have come up with his counterfeit Mary.
If you believed that Jesus Christ is your only Saviour, you would never have prayed infamous prayers like the following:
This is pure blasphemy!!! And the sooner you realize this, the better for you it will be.
Dario wrote:
Why should I ask Mary to talk to Jesus on my behalf when the Bible clearly states the following?
To ask Mary to appease Jesus in your behalf is an outright denial of the efficacy of his blood. It is pure idolatry.
Your witness is not supposed to be attractive.
You may pray for me but not for my salvation because I am already saved through faith alone in Christ alone and his finished work on the cross (NOT THROUGH WORKS, BAPTISM, YOUR CHURCH, INDULGENCES, ALMS, MARY AND THE MASS)
And when you pray for me, please do not direct your prayers to Mary because she can do absolutely nothing for you or for me. Rather direct your prayers directly to Jesus Christ.
Dario
And you say this is not Marian worship?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cegIIS-oolg#t=370
Thomas,
I will attempt to be as complete as possible to each and every point you made. Since I want it to be as exhaustive a reply as possible, it might take me some time (which I’m already taking away from other things, but it’s worth it!). So be patient.
1. “only sinful people need God’s grace.” Says who? Do angels possess God’s grace? I believe so. Are they sinful people? Definitely not.
2. I’ve done some research and found a great explanation just about what you mentioned. The full article can be found here: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm.
This article states:
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You can read the rest of it at the link I posted above if you want the complete article.
3. You seem to always put words on people’s mouths: I never said that Mary is the SOURCE of Grace. God is the ONLY source of Grace. But since we recognize Mary as FULL of God’s Grace (favor), she can intercede for us to God (aka Jesus) and obtain the graces we so much need.
What I want you to tell me is how you explain the episode in the Gospel where Mary asks Jesus at Canaa to help the wedding couple since they had no more wine. Jesus clearly states that His hour has not yet come, nevertheless, upon her request, He changes his mind. And don’t tell me that he called her “woman” to put her down, because that would be a sin against the 4th commandment and Jesus is sinless and cannot sin. Tell me exactly why this episode of Mary’s intercession is reported in the Gospel so precisely and underlined with such detail. I could actually ask you the same thing of why is it so explicitly mentioned that she was with the eleven when the Holy Spirit came. Mary’s (silent and humble) presence with the disciples is always noted. Finally, tell me what use is to our Faith that it is reported by John that Jesus asked FIRST Mary to take John as her son and John take her as his mother? Why report this in the Gospel (since John himself says that all the things written were so that we would believe)?
We also pray to St. Stephen since we believe in his intercession as well, just like the intercession of any other of the saints. Of course, we don’t believe any of the saints were sinless, but they are in Heaven with Jesus, just like Moses and Elija in the Transfiguration episode, and converse with Jesus.
4. Yes, Aquinas had some trouble with the Immaculate Conception. But the truth is the following:
Again, after doing some research, I found this interesting explanation: http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2011/10/did-st-thomas-aquinas-deny-immaculate.html
Of which I copy here this:
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5. I’m not complaining about you trying to denounce error, rather about the scorning you and Deborah showed to others in this post. That is unbecoming of a christian.
6. Testimony of devotion to Our Blessed Mother since early Christianity:
http://www.earlychristians.org/index.php/origins/item/678-the-devotion-to-the-virgin-mary-in-the-early-church/678-the-devotion-to-the-virgin-mary-in-the-early-church
7. About the Assumption, I found interesting answers here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
I will quote from it the following:
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Dario posted,
Your and the article’s above presupposition is that if Mary was not conceived without sin, then Jesus could not have been conceived without sin either, and could therefore not have been God’s spotless sacrificial Lamb? The CERC (http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html) says it thus “Catholics believe that God wanted a perfectly pure woman to carry His Son, the God of the universe, for nothing else short of perfection would do.” Jesus Himself said He came to seek and to save lost sinners (Luke 19:10). How could He possibly save Mary from sin when she had no sin while she herself said “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”? You say you love and revere Mary. I say you don’t because you and your church have effectively excluded her from Jesus’ saving grace expressed in Luke 19:10.
Let’s quickly look at the meaning of perfection. Bearing in mind that we are discussing things in the spiritual realm, perfection must mean perfect sinlessness and perfect goodness. At least we agree on that. Now, do you remember what Jesus once said about goodness? “And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. (Luke 18:19). It follows that if Mary were to be perfectly sinless she also would have had to be perfectly good. If Jesus was correct in saying that God alone is perfectly good, then He must have admitted that Mary is God. And still you insist that you and your Catholic brethren do not worship Mary. If she is God and you do not worship her, you are being downright disobedient and in blatant rebellion against the will of God.
Anything short of God’s perfect goodness is sin and that is precisely why Paul says in Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (his perfect goodness). “Coming short” means that we do not deserve his mercies and favours and most of all that we cannot earn his mercies and favours through good works. We will always come short of God’s perfect goodness no matter how many good works we do. The Bible says that our best works are like filthy menstrual rags (Isaiah 64:6). Even your corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible says so: “And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman: and we have all fallen as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
What proof do you have from Scripture that Mary as a young child and later as a young woman was always perfectly good? And even if you had some kind of evidence you would still have to admit that her most perfect works were “as the rag of a menstruous woman.” Unless, of course, she herself is God because God alone is perfectly good.
Is Luke 1:28 the only verse in Scripture you can come up with to try and prove that Mary was conceived without sin and lived a perfect sinless life?
You wrote:
I have just proved to you that if Mary was perfectly sinless she would also have had to be perfectly good which, according to Jesus’ own words in Luke 18:19 would mean that she is God. Indeed, God alone is “full of God’s grace.”
This is the only verse in the entire Bible (excluding the corrupt Douay-Rheims Bible) where the words “full of grace and truth” appear. And guess what? It is used only in reference to Jesus Christ. Here “full of grace and truth” are given as “Plhrhs charitos kai alEtheias.” If Mary were to be “full of grace and truth” these exact words would have appeared in Luke 1:28 and not the words “alEtheias (“having been the favoured one). By the way, “full of grace and truth” must of necessity go hand in hand. “Full of grace” and “Truth” cannot be separated. What does that tell us? If Mary was “full of grace” she must also have been “full of truth.” Once again that would make her God. Jesus said:
No! saith you and the RCC “Mary is the way to God (Jesus Christ). What utter blasphemy. Do you have no fear of God to believe such heresy?
Furthermore, Luke 1:30 says “And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.” Here the word “charin” (unmerited favour) is used for grace. If she was already full of grace in Luke 1:28, why would she need to obtain grace (unmerited favour) from God? Only sinners need God’s unmerited favour.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immaculate-conception-and-assumption
This article is quick to say “There is no record of that” (the bodily assumption of the saints into heaven who were raised from the dead after Christ’s resurrection), and yet you can say with assured certainty that Mary was taken bodily into heaven without any record of it ever happening. Of course the biblical Mary’s spirit and soul was taken into heaven after she died like all the other saints who have already died. The article above admits that the RCC cannot say with assurance that she died or not. “The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”
First of all, the Bible does not say that the saints who were raised from the dead after Christ’s resurrection received bodies after the kind unto that of Jesus. What we do know from such scriptures as 1 Thessalonians:4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians:15:51-52 is that God has resurrected no one to eternal life as an immortal yet—except Christ. If Jesus had resurrected anyone to eternal life already, He could not have been the firstfruits of those that slept. They would all have been his co-firstfruits. Jesus said:
What then about Enoch and Elijah? Were they not taken up to heaven alive? Here’s a good article you can read.
Thomas,
I’m sure you’re going to address the other points I made soon, so I’ll be patiently waiting for those.
As far as the comments you just replied with, you seem to constantly be keeping an opinion (it is YOUR opinion) that eventually misleads your conclusions: that we must worship Mary.
Now, let’s make it clear that I believe we agree that there’s a difference between God and creatures. That’s why I brought you the example of the angels (which you have not replied to, yet another example of you bypassing my arguments as I had told you before). Yes, Jesus says that only God is good. But He also says that we must HATE our own life in order to follow Him. The problem here is the axiom of taking everything that is written in the Bible literally, without taking account for cultural expressions and simple attempts to just make a pioint. The reason why Jesus told the young man that only God is good was a direct and simple way of stating His divinity. Simple as that. Jesus was trying to tell Him: “If you recognize me as a good teacher, be sure to know that I’m more than that, I’m The Lord!”, so to help him understand that what He was about to ask him was coming from God and that he needed to not be discouraged or afraid. Jesus himself warns against narrow vision interpretation of scripture several times: when he proves to the sadducees that God is God of the living and not of the dead (whether these are living in Heaven, or another place – a first or a second heaven, or the bosom of Abraham, they are anyways ALIVE despite having died) ; also when he replies to the accusation of blashemy of the Pharisees who want to kill Him becuase he’s declared Himself as the Son of God, what does Jesus reply? Isn’t it written in your scriptures ” I have said you are gods” Jn 10:34, which goes to show that either those pharisees were ignorant of that passage and thus were unjustly accusing Jesus (I doubt) or that they certainly did not take that passage as literal, thus their opposing Jesus Who instead was claiming VERY LITERALLY to be the Son of God. So even the pharisees were not always interpreting scripture literally….or were ignorant, or both (most probably, blinded by their own misconceptions and obtuse pride).
If you interpret all of these things literally, there’s a problem. Jesus doesn’t want us to hate our life. He’s simply using a jewish way of expressing extreme ideas common to His time: you must love God absolutely above your own life. But he certainly does not mean He requires us to HATE our life per se.
I agree with you that no man has entered Heaven because Jesus’s redemption hadn’t happened yet. But God is not bound to time and space.
That’s why He could redeem Mary despite her never having actually fallen into any sin: by PREVENTION. I’ve explained this in my citation of Duns Scotus which you have not yet commented on. God can do anything, thus He does what is most fitting to His Glory in the best logically possible way: He redeemed Mary by preventing her from falling into original sin. He could do it certainly, thus He did it. That is the best way of redeeming someone. Mary was favored exclusively in light of the fact that she was meant to carry the Son of God, Who, as God, is incompatible to sin! Jesus, as God, could not have dwelled in a sinful place for 9 months, I don’t find that very hard to believe. Mary’s is unmerited favor because she WOULD HAVE FALLEN INTO ORIGINAL SIN HADN’T GOD PREVENTED THAT BECAUSE SHE’S A CREATURE! A creature! And because she’s a creature, she’s limited. Jesus, as a MAN, is also a creature, thus limited: that’s why it is written that after they found Him in the temple He went with them and was subject to them, growing in wisdom, favor and stature. Jesus is ONE person with TWO natures. His human nature is PERFECT yet limited. Moreover, the article I posted about the Immaculate Conception and the original greek word used by Gabriel states clearly that it depicts an action that has come to completion: she was full of grace in a definitive way as MADE by Someone as such. So she did receive (since she’s a creature and not God). You have not yet answered me giving me your interpretation of the reason why we’re told in the Gospel that Jesus started His miracles after the intercession of His mother. I expect an answer.
In conclusion: we DO NOT worship Mary. Just because she’s full of grace it doesn’t mean she’s God at all. As a creature she’s full of Grace as much as a CREATURE can be, which is limited. Even Jesus AS A MAN was limited and yet full of Grace, but the fulness of Grace He has as GOD is and endless fullness, which is VERY DIFFERENT from that which can be possessed by a creature. We give her the honor God has always given her, through His angel Gabriel, through Elizabeth, through the Apostles (who were gathering around her for Pentecost), and finally that Jesus gave her, considering her so precious to Him to want to give her to all of us through the desciple he so much loved, John. And note that Jesus first said: WOMAN behold your son (John), son behold your mother. So He first asks Mary to welcome His disciple into her motherly love and care. That’s how much Jesus trusted Mary.
If you only use the Bible to interpret the Bible you will have a big problem trying to make sense of many things. That’s why the Elders and Leaders of the people in Jesus’ time had sooooo many interpretations and were wrong, to quote Jesus, VERY MISTAKEN, about the way some were interpreting scripture. And let me ask you this: where in the Bible does it say which books are supposed to be in the Bible? Didn’t you derive that from a tradition? Also: the first complete Bible was not assembled before the year 390 AD, how did christians go about without a fully written Bible until then? Didn’t Paul write many letters yet not all of them are considered Sacred Scripture? Who decided that? Is it in the Bible somewhere? Also, Paul said to Timothy to hold on to the TRADITIONS he taught him, by letter and by WORD.
LAst but not least: Catholics believe in salvation by works THROUGH GRACE. Meaning: without Grace, we cannot do good works WHICH are necessary to be saved. Our works are, as you said, nothing but scum. Jesus required us to PERSEVERE until the end, and those that do are saved. So there’s a continuing stride. Grace we obtain FROM GOD and GOD ONLY, because we BELIEVE, because of our Faith (which is a gift of God). St. James in his letter is very clear about this. To believe is not enough, you have to put what you believe to practice. That’s what Catholics believe. Yours is a blatant misconception that we WORK our way to Heaven on OUR OWN. Nothing farther from truth than this.
Thomas, you’re not objective. You are so influenced by your misconceptions and prejudices that you fail to consider Catholic Faith objectively. You are in some way making the same mistake of the pharisees in judging Jesus. And part of the reason why you act this way, in my humble opinion (so forgive me if I’m wrong, I do not intend to judge you, merely state what I believe your position to be so to make my point) is because of historical events which undoubtedly have put the Catholic Church in a grim light and because you have elected to reject ANY FORM OF TRADITION to rely ONLY on Scripture. Sola Scripture is not taught in the Bible. Find me where it is if you don’t agree. And don’t quote that usual passage where St. Paul states that Scripture is good to correct and so forth, because I believe that passsage, but St. Paul does not say it is THE ONLY way. And even your reply that the first christians could have a sort of preview of the New Testament written because they had copies of the Old Testament does not hold water in my humble opinion. They’re two different things and early christians did not have written copies of the New Testament for CENTURIES. How were they spreading their faith.
I expect you to answer this and all the previous points I have made in the previous reply. Thanks for taking the time to do that, I really appreciate it.
Oh, one last thing:
What proof do YOU have that Mary was NOT always perfectly good? I have the words of an Angel to give to you, but you very well know them. Then let me ask you: if Gabriel says she was highly in favor in God’s eyes, when did she start to be as such?
And note that, she was addressed as being highly in favor BEFORE she accepted to become the Mother of Jesus. Think about it. I’d say PRAY about it.
Dario wrote:
What proof do I have that Mary was NOT always perfectly good? I have just relayed to you all the reasons why Mary was NOT perfect and still you insist that she was sinless at her conception. You are either deliberately ignoring all the facts I presented to you or you are deliberately ignorant and blind of the verses I quoted, The reason why you are so adamant to ignore everything I wrote is because you must at all cost uphold and defend your Marian doctrines because if you don’t the Roman Catholic Church will collapse like a house of cards. The false Mary (not the Mary of the Bible) is the corner stone of your church and NOT Jesus Christ.
Dario wrote,
When we speak of God’s grace, we speak of it in terms of God’s salvation. The angels in heaven have never sinned and therefore do not need God’s grace unto salvation. You should know that.
He did not take on himself the nature of the holy angels because they had never been in bondage to the fear of death. Why? Because they have never sinned.
I must say yout argument is very flimsy, to say the least.
Dario wrote:
The difference between God and the holy angels is not at stake here. We are talking about the difference between God and fallen man of whom Mary was part and parcel. I have already quoted to you Romans 5:12: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Your Douay-Rheims Bible admits that, like all mankind, Mary was destined to die because “all (including Mary) have sinned. “Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.” (DRB) And yet you persist in the lie that Mary was miraculously kept safe and sound from original sin.
The more I tell you that you’re rendering of Luke 1:28, to substantiate you’re claim of the Immaculate Conception, is untrue, the more you quote it to me. Can’t you see that Luke 1:28 and John 1:14 where “full of grace” refers to Jesus Christ are miles apart? I even made an effort to try and convince you of the difference by quoting to you the differences in the Greek language in both these verses.
You don’t have to tell me why Jesus asked the man why He called Him good. I know why Jesus did it. The point is that you and your church attribute perfect goodness to Mary which Jesus explicitly said was only an attribute of God. Please don’t try to derail the real issue at stake here by telling me that I shouldn’t always take the Bible literally but to give credence to the culture of that time in order to understand certain passages. That’s nonsense. Jesus’ words in Luke 18:19 is straight forward. There are no hidden metaphors or secret meanings attached to the culture of that time in his words. Can’t you see that by saying Mary is sinless you are also saying that she is perfectly good which, according to Jesus’ words in Luke 18:19, makes her God.
Once again, the real issue is not that God is the God of the living. That’s a given fact. The issue here is that you believe Mary was bodily assumed into heaven because she was allegedly sinless. You are dodging the real issue. So please keep to the subject.
Your example of the Pharisees who supposedly did not interpret the Bible literally is just as transparent and ill-informed as your earlier arguments. Are you trying to tell me that we are gods because Jesus quoted the Law to them? Do yourself a favour and read this article. “https://www.discerningtheworld.com/2011/01/17/the-bible-says-i-said-you-are-gods-but-is-this-entirely-true/#more-9771.
In hindsight I must say that your arguments are becoming more and more like the ramblings of a child. You do not keep to the subject but jump from one to the other in an effort to get me off track. It won’t bring you very far.
Dario wrote:
What in heaven’s name has this got to do with Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her assumption, her sinlessness and her perfect goodness – sorry, ALLEGED? Later on you accuse me of not being objective. Being objective, my friend, is to heed what Scripture has to say about Mary and since our discussion you have only come up with a single misinterpreted verse in to prove that Mary was sinless. What kind of objectivity is that? In fact, your kind of objectivity is based on surmising, inferences, extrapolations and pure speculation. You are ducking and diving which is usually the strategy of those who have reached a point where they no longer know what and how to address the real issue at hand.
Dario wrote:
OK let’s begin with your interpretation of the reason why Jesus performed a miracle in Cana at the behest of his mother. First of all, He did not perform it because she had the power and authority to make the request and that He accordingly submitted to her request. This cannot be seen as some sort of standard template to prove that in heaven Jesus always answers her prayer requests and that He cannot refuse to comply because she allegedly has this power and authority in heaven. All authority and power in heaven and on earth was given unto Him and not to Mary or anyone else (Matthew 28:18). He is Sovereign Lord overall and sovereignly wills to whom He wants to show mercy. He has no need of another intercessor in heaven to do his work for Him as the supreme Advocate. (Hebrews 7:25).
The question we ought to ask is, was Mary knowingly asking Him to do a miracle? This is highly unlikely because this was the very first miracle He performed (verse 11). She was hoping that He would do something to solve the problem but did not know of his power to do miracles. She had not yet seen her Son do miracles. It was not that He was going to refuse to perform the miracle and that He did so anyway because his mother persuaded Him to do it. He intended to do the miracle anyway but in his time, and therefore would have delayed the performance of the miracle if Mary had not intervened and hastened his original plan. Later in John He also delayed his miracle to raise Lazarus from the grave with the specific purpose to strengthen the faith of his disciples.
Mary had to learn a painful lesson (Luke 2:35), namely that Jesus was committed to God the Father’s will (and not his earthly mother’s will) and the time for his manifestation was in the Father’s hand. Mary’s response to the servants (Do whatever He tells you) revealed her submission to her Son. Even though she did not fully understand, she trusted Him.
God is not bound by space and time but He is bound by the way lost souls should be saved. Let me quote to you AGAIN Hebrews 9:22
Mary’s salvation was NOT a bloodless intervention by prevention. I can understand why you make such a fuss of a bloodless sacrifice. Your Mass is a perpetual bloodless sacrifice. If God wanted to prevent her from being stained with the original sin of Adam and Eve, He would have had to do it the moment when her ancestral parents sinned. (Romans 5:12).
You wrote:
Of course God can do anything but He cannot do anything that goes against the grain of his wisdom and his power. We learn from Scripture that the cross is the wisdom and the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Corinthians 1:18). Any attempt to circumvent the wisdom and power of God in the cross and to seek other ways of salvation other than the cross (i.e. by PREVENTION for instance) is foolishness. And yet you say it is the best way of redeeming someone. If it were the best way, why doesn’t He redeem everyone in that way? Surely the best way is the most feasible way. You also say that it is the most fitting way to glorify God. Really??? The Bible says: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: (John 17:1). God and the Son were glorified through his death on the cross and NOT through an act of PREVENTION. In fact, when Peter wanted to prevent Jesus from going to the cross, He said “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. (Matthew 16:23)
You wrote:
What??? Jesus as a man was a created being and thus limited? My Bible tells me that He was fully God and fully man and that as a man He had all the attributes of his Father (Hebrews 1:3) He was not limited in his nature as a man and neither was He created. He has always been the Son of God for whom a body was prepared.
He was not limited. As a man He willingly laid down the attributes of his Father so that He could accomplish our salvation. All his godly attributes remained intact when He became a man but willingly laid them aside to fulfil his Father’s will.
Thomas,
you accuse me of being the child while you make exactly that mistake!
You circumvent my observations all the time! Yes, because you always jump to scripture that simply enhances your fixation for the way you see things, which is only YOURS. I have 2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith. This is not simply fruit of my reasoning, even though I’ve had to reason through these things in order to fully believe.
Anyhow, do you understand me when I use simple words?! If I say that Jesus has 2 natures do we agree or not? Is He God? Yes, and I believe we agree. Is He man? Yes, and I believe we agree on this as well. Now, as MAN, NOT GOD, Jesus had to GROW right? He was fully man, exactly like us except for sin. Thus as MAN he was subject to limits, that’s why he felt hungry, tired and could die. As GOD he couldn’t do any of those things. Is it clear to you now? This is what I meant.
About Our Blessed Mother, you still deny a blatant fact you yourself stated: ” He intended to do the miracle anyway but in his time, and therefore would have delayed the performance of the miracle if Mary had not intervened and hastened his original plan.” So you do admit that He HASTENED because Mary asked, and of course you could not deny it BECAUSE THE PASSAGE SAYS JUST THAT!! This doesn’t mean that she was exercising power or authority and I agree with you that she showed Him respect but, above all, absolute trust, when she told the servants to do as He would tell them to. Stop taking for granted that we think of Mary being more than Jesus, more than God. That’s not what we believe. You’re fixated on the “logic” that only God is good thus if Mary is sinless this she’s good thus she’s God. This is absurd! You’re distorting all this to give strength to your argument. But it doesn’t hold water!
Thomas, don’t insult my intelligence even though you’re always full of negative remarks (which again, is unbecoming of a christian, but you continue with your unfriendly ways, forgive my saying but debating with you isn’t very pleasant: even though we may disagree it doesn’t mean you should make unhappy remarks about how I state my position. Just limit yourself to replying my questions and points and I’ll be happy). Admit that you are the one so firm on having to prove me wrong that you don’t even realize when you’re not making sense.
If there’s no remission without bloodshed, then I ask you: what did Jesus allow his apostles to do when the Sunday after His resurrection He breathed them the Holy Spirit and gave them the power to forgive and retain sins? Did He allow them to shed blood every time they forgave sins? I really would like to know what is your interpretation of this passage (Jn 20:22).
You have even given me proof of the interpretation from the Greek?!? Did you read my reply or not?! I fully answered you to that just as well, based on the Greek and I’ve proven to you that what was referred to Our Blessed Mother was an act of making her full of grace that had come to completion as opposed to the term referred to the believers as in Eph 1:6 where the verb represents an ongoing process. Do you yourself read my answers or only what you find convenient?!? Now I’m going to start giving you the same replies and use the same tone you use in your answers. Let’s see if you like it!
In Mt 5:48 Jesus says “”Therefore you are to be perfect, AS your heavenly Father is perfect”. We need to be not only good, but perfect. Does that make us God!?!? Come on!!! You want to take it literally? Ok: then Jesus would be asking us to be God! Of course he’s not! He’s asking us to take God as our model and strive for a holiness like His even if we would never be able to match Him! Right?!?!?
St. Peter says in his first letter “but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.” 1 Pt 1:15.
You seem to fail to understand the difference between God and creature. It is not the attributes that makes someone a God or a creature, rather the substance, the nature! God is God, the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier, while a creature is a creature! That doesn’t mean a creature can’t be holy! And if it is holy it doesn’t mean it is God!! Angels are holy yet they are not God! AND I HAD JUST STATED THAT THEY ARE NOT SINFUL PEOPLE YET YOU IGNORE MY ANSWERS OR READ THROUGH THEM! That passage you quoted on the fact that Jesus took upon our nature and not that of angels HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POINT I WAS MAKING. You are so fixated with what you see as so absurd that we regard Mary at such a privileged place that it just doesn’t allow you to see our reasons. Why does it have to be incompatible that Mary is by God exalted in such manner, despite remaining always a creature?! Why? You say she’s no longer Jesus’ mother? But do you listen to yourself? So what is it? Jesus just forgot she’s His mother? She was simply a container and a tutor and that’s it? Do you think God thinks the way you do?!?!?
You need to stop thinking that we’re taking the spotlight away from Jesus! We ARE NOT! Doesn’t He say “”Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” Mt 5:16?!?! (He says WORKS by the way!) He says that by seeing holy creatures, their Creator gets praised. This happens first and foremost with Mary! Jesus never puts her down, neither at Canaa nor when they tell Him that she’s waiting outside or that she was blessed for having breast fed Him. He always replies in the same way: Blessed are those who do the will of my Father! Who better than Mary?!!? “Be it done on to me according to thy word”!!!!
I’ve asked you to be reasonable, not to quote scripture in a blind spree and apply it in ways that are advantageous to your claims without taking full account of the things I quote! Reasonable means to analyze my position and give a respectful reply, not a dismissal full of contempt and indignation! I’ve done my best to take and consider your points reasonably and was happy to be challenged in my faith by them. That’s the best thing about apologetics. But you condemn Thomas. Beware of your ways because by the way you measure it shall be measure to you. That’s my personal advice. Then do as you please.
You also dodged my other observations. That is most disrespectful. Why don’t you answer the questions I ask you Thomas?
WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN WHICH BOOKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE BIBLE?! Sorry: CHANGE OF SUBJECT (so you don’t think I’m avoiding and dodging). Answer the question! WHERE and HOW did the early christians read their Bibles!?!? Answer!
Why does Paul tell Timothy that he should hold on to the TRADITIONS?!!?
St. Paul mentions tradition several times in his epistles, reminding both Timothy and the Thessalonians to stand fast to the traditions he taught them. In his Second Letter to Timothy, Paul wrote: “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (1:13-14). Later, in the same letter, he further instructs Timothy, “You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2:1-2). It seems clear that the apostolic Tradition, the oral teaching of the apostles, was to be preserved and transmitted from generation to generation. St. Paul doesn’t write to Timothy and say, “This is all you need for salvation”; rather, he writes Timothy to entrust to other faithful men, who will be able to instruct others, what he preached, and Timothy heard, before many witnesses.
Oh and guess what? The famous passage where St. Paul states that Scripture is good to correct and so forth that you love and quote so much: he was talking about the OLD TESTAMENT because there was NO NEW TESTAMENT WRITTEN YET! Right?!?
So. You answer all these question TAKING ME SERIOUSLY and putting your bias aside for once and we can have an edifying confrontation. Otherwise save your time and occupation and busy yourself with something useful! Forgive my firmness, but I deem it necessary.
Dario,
You keep on telling me that I do not answer your questions. The same accusation applies to you. Answer me a very simple question. Do you agree with the following statements?
This very clearly says that no one can be saved or redeemed but through Mary. It simply means that anyone who does not pray to Mary and asks her to obtain Mercy from Jesus on his/her behalf, is not saved.
Yes, of course Mary was the vessel God used to bring the Messiah into the world, but it doesn’t mean that she is the one by and through whom grace/salvation is dispensed to fallen mankind.
I close with this statement to which you gave no answer. And I am quoting from Dave Hunt’s book “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
This my friend, is your “2000 years of history and billions of people that share my Faith.” It is fraught with lies, deceit, inconsistencies, and anti-biblical and anti-God.
You have quoted to me wonderful verse such as Matthew 5:48 and 1 Peter 1:15 and I agree. However, wouldn’t you say that your infallible pontiffs ought to have been the vanguards in being holy and perfect? This is what really happened to your more than 2000 years of pristine tradition in your church. Again, I am quoting from “A Woman Rides the Beast.”
This is history my friend and you cannot deny it. 2000 years of pristine tradition? Is this what motivates you to pray to Mary? Really???
And with this I close my case. I refuse to engage you any further because you love it when the blind leads the blind.
Don’t even try to respond to this post for I will delete it immediately.
I haven’t read the entire point by point here yet, but it is such a relief to hear someone else say these things! I felt like I was alone among all my Christian friends who proclaim how great this story was (even CBN)! I bought the book, was troubled by it, and gave it to GoodWill! I probably should have burned it, in retrospect. Hooray for explaining the humans with “wings” in Heaven thing – that really bothered me! I felt other things were troubling too-including the father fighting in the Battle of Armagedon– it just seemed false.I did not think we joined in on that at all. But regardless, as much, as a woman, I would not mind letting others fight and me stay behind, it seemed very earthly thinking for the women and children to stay behind. We would all be just as able and strong – there is no male or female in Jesus Christ, so why would be not all fight? The only thing I would question in the presentation here-is the power from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES give power-Acts 1:8 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;” Now I know this was talking about the infilling back then, but the Holy Spirit has given me power to talk to others about Him, and the more I stay in the Lord’s presence, the more I feel this power. But this is a small point because the child was, I agree, used by Satan to spread a New Agey gospel message. One pastor who was interviewed on TV opposed the boy’s story based on the fact that he believed no one died, went to Heaven, and came back to tell about it. He had no other argument. I could not believe it!
T D Jakes is the money man behind this movie. If T D Jakes is part of it, I want nothing to do with it.
He is a name it and claim it prosperity preacher that is out of the pit of hell. Anything he is part of, followers of Christ should stay away from.
Yes, there are a lot of anti biblical parts of this supposed story.