Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse
The problem is that Lordship Salvation confuses the ROOT of a believer’s faith, i.e., faith in Christ (Romans 4:5), with the FRUIT of that faith, i.e., good works (James 2:18). The ROOT should bring forth the FRUIT; but the FRUIT cannot come before the ROOT. DO you understand the difference? Lordship Salvationists are demanding the FRUIT as a prerequisite to salvation. They are putting the cart before the horse.
Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse
“But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew… But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.” -Mark 14:68,71
The above passage of Scripture is speaking about the Apostle Peter. Peter sinned by denying Jesus. Yet, Peter was a born-again believer. King David was a Christian; yet he conspired to have a man killed, to cover up an unwanted pregnancy, from an adulterous affair with that man’s wife. Abraham and Sara doubted God. Moses was a murderer. Samson went with a harlot. Jacob was a thief. Jonah ran from God. Noah got drunk. Isaiah was a man of unclean lips. These were God’s best and brightest.
Lot was a worldly believer. Yet, 2nd Peter 2:7 calls Lot a “just” man. The Lordship Salvation crowd would have considered all of these men unsaved. Yet, we see they were saved.
This subject needs to [be] preached about on a regular basis, because the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION has infiltrated our churches, and is leading multitudes into Hell.
What is “Lordship Salvation?” Lordship Salvation is the unbiblical teaching that a person MUST cease from a sinful lifestyle to be saved. Lordship Salvationists pervert the true meaning of the word “REPENT” in the Word of God. Whereas Biblical repentance means that a person recognizes their guilt of sin (Romans 3:19); Lordship Salvationists corrupt the meaning of the word, teaching that a person must cease from living a sinful lifestyle to be saved. God does not ask us to give up anything to be saved. Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23). Salvation is receiving, not giving. God gave us His only begotten Son, Jesus, to pay our debt of sin. All we have to do to be saved is to acknowledge our guilt of sin, coming to God on that basis; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive our sins (Acts 10:43).
In 2nd Peter 3:9 we read, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Greek word for “repentance” here is “METANOIA” and literally means “a change of mind.” Not a change of lifestyle; BUT, a change of mind. The changed life should follow afterwards; but the Bible is filled with examples of saints who continued to live in rebellion and sin, such as Solomon and Samson.
Turning from Unbelief verses Turning from One’s Sins
“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” -Mark 1:15
Carefully notice in Mark 1:15 above that Jesus didn’t say “repent ye, and turn from your sins.” No, Jesus clearly stated, “repent ye, and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.” It is plain to see that Biblical repentance is a change of one’s mind concerning sin and unbelief, which causes that soul to turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Jesus never once said to a person, “Give up all your sin and then I’ll save you.” No, rather, Jesus said “Go, and sin no more” after making them whole (John 8:11). All God asks is that we come for salvation through His dear Son (John 3:16).
We must be extremely careful when we tell lost sinners that they need to be willing to turn from their sins to be saved. I have read many Gospel tracts that give the impression that a person MUST forsake their sins to be saved-which is NOT true at all. A person DOES need to REPENT of their SINS to be SAVED, but that change begins in the mind and may take some time to show in that person’s personal life (1st Peter 2:2). The ONLY repentance which God requires of a man to be saved is for that man to acknowledge his sinful condition and; thus, recognize his desperate need for a Savior.
I certainly think it would be reasonable for a repenting sinner to desire to turn from his or her sins; BUT, as we learn from countless believers in the Bible, that’s not always the case. Judges 16:1 states, “Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.”
I am NOT condoning sin. I am simply saying that Christians at best are people, and people at best are still sinners.
Lordship Salvation is rooted in self-righteousness, for all Christians are sinners. If living in sin can cause a born-again believer to lose salvation, then we all lost it a long time ago, for all have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 7:14-25). It is solely by Christ’s merciful righteousness that we are saved (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Lordship Salvation and the Pentecostal Charismatic heresy of losing one’s salvation are related monsters. Lordship Salvationists ADD works to faith to GET saved, and the Charismatics ADD works to faith to STAY saved. Regardless, these two damnable heresies are both rooted in works salvation!
The Change Comes AFTER a Person is Saved, NOT before.
The internet is plagued with heretics who are teaching that a person must forsake their sinful life to be saved. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 reads, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Please notice that a man does NOT become a “new creature” until AFTER he is in Christ. The change comes after a person is saved, NOT before.
If a person claims to be a Christian but is still living a wicked lifestyle, still living in perpetual sin, then I would sincerely doubt that person’s salvation as well. However, I am not going to start teaching damnable heresy by saying that sinners must forsake all their sins in order to be saved. Salvation comes through childlike faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; nothing may be added.
Once a man becomes a new creature in Christ, THEN and ONLY THEN he begins to change. Lordship Salvationists are sanctimonious (i.e., hypocritical in their beliefs) in that they are sinners themselves. The entire notion that a lost sinner must give up sin to be saved presents a serious indictment against Lordship Salvationists … “For all have sinned…” (Romans 3:23). Let he who is without sin among you teach Lordship Salvation.
A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.
My question to you is: Are there 2 Gospels?
- The Gospel of John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Paul Washer, Jack Chick, Aiden Tozer, and others, requires that a person forsake (or be willing to forsake) their entire lifestyle of sin, make amends, and change their ways, as a prerequisite (beforehand) to saving faith.
- The Biblical Gospel teaches that we are saved solely by Christ’s righteousness (Romans 10:3-4), and that no self-righteousness of any kind is required (Titus 3:5), because we have none to offer (Isaiah 64:6); neither does a person have to quit any sin to be saved (Romans 4:5-6). Repent of their sins, yes. After we are genuinely saved, are we a new person in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit abiding in us, chastises us when we sin, as we grow in Christ-likeness, and change our ways to sin no more. But we will never be sinless because the bible says so.
A lot of Christians have brushed the issue aside as a matter of semantics, but the difference between the 2 Gospels is day and night. One includes a certain degree of self-righteousness, which is a false Gospel; but the other is solely based upon Christ’s righteousness, which is by the precious literal, physical, blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” -John 3:16
Lordship Salvationists, in a futile attempt to support their false doctrine, paint an ugly picture of their opponents. They allege that we believe people can happily indulge in open sin with no remorse whatsoever. That is simply not the case at all. God doesn’t give anyone permission to sin (Romans 3:31).
Please remember that Biblical repentance IS A CHANGE OF MIND. A person who is genuinely saved now has a different attitude. If a man is a true Christian, he won’t have the haughty attitude that he can continue in open sin with no consequences. Each believer has the Spirit of Christ living within (Romans 8:9). This is the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 12:8 makes clear that God will CHASTISE His children. The Holy Spirit always convicts the believer of unrepentant sin. In sharp contrast, the heathen unsaved world knows not God, and sins with no remorse or concern for the things of God.
Lordship Salvationists are wrong when they they attack Bible-believing Christians with shallow accusations which simply CANNOT be substantiated with the Scriptures. A person who has been genuinely saved has repented concerning their sins, i.e., they acknowledged their GUILT of sin and believed on Christ for forgiveness.
The heresies that Lordship Salvationists teach are not found anywhere in the Scriptures. They mandate repentance FROM sins to be saved, but this is not Scriptural. Biblically, we are to repent OF our sins, i.e., our sinful condition. God says we are all sinners (Romans 3:10,19-23).
Repentance from sin is an entirely different matter. Just because a person believes upon Christ as Savior doesn’t automatically mean that their life is cleaned up. It takes time for a new believer to grow in the Lord (1st Peter 2:2). A new believer doesn’t instantly stop drinking, smoking, cursing, etc. It takes time to grow in grace.
Lordship Salvationists are hypocrites because they expect a sinner to change instantly in order to get saved. Lordship Salvation prohibits anyone from coming to Christ for salvation who isn’t willing to forsake all their sins. So then how can anyone be saved? No one can forsake ALL their sins, otherwise they’d be perfect, and only Jesus Christ is without sin (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15).
Explaining Repentance
I believe repentance is necessary for salvation. Mark 1:15, “…repent ye, and believe the gospel.” The Greek word for ‘repent’ here is ‘metanoeo,’ which translated into English means ‘to change one’s mind.’ It does not mean to stop sinning, since that would mean self-righteous works for salvation. We are commanded to repent and believe the Gospel; not repent and turn from sin. We turn to Jesus to be forgiven of our sins; we don’t turn from our sins in order to trust Jesus.
If a person has to stop committing sin to be saved, then how can anyone be saved? There is much confusion over the phrase “turn from sin,” but if the Biblical teaching that eternal life is a free gift is not forgotten, then the truth becomes very clear. A gift cannot be earned. Salvation is not a reward, it is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15; 6:23).
When a sinner must ‘turn from sin’ to be saved, he simply means that a sinner must renounce all their sins. But renouncing one’s sins is quite different than ceasing from committing sin (when one is trying to get saved). Biblical repentance is a change of mind. Paul Washer teaches that repentance is a change of life; but that is wrong. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance, and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.
Biblical repentance unto salvation means turning to Jesus Christ to be forgiven of one’s sins; not turning from one’s sins to trust in Christ. When a man turns to Christ by faith, he has turned his back against sin. This is why we find the word ‘believe’ mentioned 85-times in the Gospel of John, but the word ‘repent’ is never mentioned even once. Thus, the man who believes on Jesus has repented, and the man who repents has believed on Christ. The solution to sin is not education, legislation, rehabilitation, nor reformation; but regeneration. Repentance and faith are inseparable. They occur simultaneously. Lordship Salvationists attempt to divide repentance and faith, but you cannot.
Many false prophets, such as Ray Comfort and John MacArthur, misinterpret the meaning of repentance as ceasing from a sinful lifestyle. The Bible does not teach that. This heresy is commonly referred to as ‘Lordship Salvation,’ which I DO NOT believe at all. Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” We are saved by the IMPUTED righteousness of Jesus Christ.
We are saved solely by Jesus’ righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness in any way. The desire to forsake one’s sins is not a prerequisite to faith in Christ. The sincere admission of one’s guilt of sin for breaking God’s commandments is sufficient. The only requirement is for a person to realize that they have sinned against God and; therefore, need a Savior. It is not what we can do for God that saves us; but rather, what Jesus Christ did for us through His work of redemption. Jesus paid a debt that He did not owe, because we owed a debt that we could not pay.
Here is a brief answer that might help…
“What is Lordship salvation?”
Answer: Lordship Salvation emphasizes that submitting to Christ as Lord over your life goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ to be saved. It also focuses on a changed life as the result of salvation. Those who believe in Lordship Salvation would have serious doubts about a person who claims to believe in Christ but does not have good works evident in his life. The Bible does teach that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22-23; James 2:14-26).
However, depending on the person and his circumstances, spiritual growth sometimes occurs quickly, and other times it takes a long time for changes to become evident, and even then the changes may not be evident to everyone. The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith alone, apart from works (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). The Bible also declares that a life changes after salvation (Ephesians 2:10). So it is a difficult balance to make. We do know, however, that we are not to judge another as to the state of his/her eternal soul (Matthew 7:1). Only God knows who are His sheep and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.
So, is Lordship Salvation biblical? Again, it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces a change (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). At the same time, submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure (2 Peter 1:5-8). A person does not have to submit to God in every area of his or her life in order to be saved. A person simply has to recognize that he or she is a sinner, in need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and place trust in Him (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10). Christians absolutely should submit to Him (James 4:7). A changed life and submission to Christ’s lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.
Steve
What are you trying to say… umm…. are you agreeing with unbiblical Lordship Salvation or not? because…
>> First, Peter did not have the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with Him. The Spirit is the replacement Jesus promised when he left.
And who WALKED WITH PETER until the Holy Spirit came as a replacement? Yes,Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD who is One of the Three in the Trinity! During that time the Jews offered sacrifices and spilt the blood of a spotless animal (lamb) for God to wash away their sin. BUT before Jesus was crucified, could Jesus not Convict Peter of his sin? Of course yes! Could Jesus not forgive Peter of his sin? Of course yes! Could Jesus not save Peter? Of course yes! And The Holy Spirit was around before Jesus was crucified, He just did not abide IN people. And finally the biggie, did Peter not have a conscience given to him by God? Of course yes.
You see, this working for your salvation without the power of the Holy Spirit is nothing but a Calvinist (ELECT) teaching where the Elect believe they can do these things because God chose them before birth to be saved. If you don’t need the Holy Spirit Steve then you don’t need Jesus either and that would explain why John MacArthur denies the blood of Jesus and calls is just LIQUID. IT means nothing to him because his salvation along with other Calvinists and Lordship Salvationists is purely of the FLESH.
Biblical salvation is working per se for your salvation WITH THE POWER of the Holy Spirit not without! The Holy Spirit empowers you to CHANGE your ways – therefore it is not work, it becomes a natural process, sometimes a difficult one, but yes we will change our ways.
If you don’t have the Holy Spirit abiding in you you are NOT SAVED and any changes you make to improve your sinful life means nothing. It’s like smoking, a smoker can quit smoking (stop sinning), does it make him saved? No, it just makes him a non-smoker. There are millions of people out there who do good and think they live a sinless life and are not saved.
Michael
What you have stated is Biblical salvation and repentance…
Read Steve’s comment (the first few lines) to get a better idea as to what unbiblical ‘Lordship Salvation’ REALLY MEANS!
PS, please answer your email 🙂
Deb’s I agree with you… that’s exactly what I have backed…choose Christ first and his redemption and let the Holy Spirit do the rest…it’s as simple as that. God never confuses us like the theologians do…His message is so simple that it fails man’s pride and interlect to understand and accept it because of vanity…ie why do the nations imagine a vain thing…Why do the nations so furiously rage together? Why do the people imagine a vain thing? Let us break their bonds a sunder, and cast away their yokes from us. He that dwelleth in heaven shall laugh them to scorn; the Lord shall have them in derision. Thou shalt break them, Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. (Psalm 2: 1-4)
This is an answer to why people reject the truth about Christ’s full message and ultimate saving grace, that’s the way I understand it.
Michael
Beeeeooootiful!
Now answer your email LOL.
What exactly do you think it means to “follow Christ”?
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
If you havent received the Holy Spirit, your works mean nothing..neither does professing to “know” Christ…
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Can you ignore the will of God… and get into Heaven?
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and
honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jas 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
God is the master , you are the servant…Jesus is Lord of all
Can you ignore the will of God… and get into Heaven?
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
hmm…Keep the word of God and bring forth fruit…sounds like an order from the one you agree to follow!
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by
the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and
acceptable, and perfect will of God.
and one more thing..Salvation is a promise not given until the end when Jesus comes with His reward to give every man according to his works.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
If you don’t do the will of the Father you will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
If the Lord is not your boss… who is? Are you a servant of the most High, doing His will,by the power of the Holy Spirit given to you or your own will?
Steve
Oh boy…
>> hmm…Keep the word of God and bring forth fruit…sounds like an order from the one you agree to follow!
Do you keep the Word of God by your strength without the Holy Spirit? I keep the Word of God and bring forth FRUIT because of the Holy Spirit that abides IN ME and the Holy Spirit LEADS ME into ALL TRUTH. I obey the Word of God because the Holy Spirit empowers me to. I don’t do it out of my own mind.
Good works and obedience are results of salvation, not requirements for salvation.
>> and one more thing..Salvation is a promise not given until the end when Jesus comes with His reward to give every man according to his works
Dude, firstly there is justification, this is when we are first saved, when we accept Jesus into our lives and then the Holy Spirit comes to abide in us, then there is sanctification the part where we grow to be like Christ, i.e., we grow in holiness with the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT. When we are saved we have assurance of our salvation, the Bible promises this to us. We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit. We have do to something really bad to lose our salvation like denounce Jesus Christ and follow another religion (god). Only in the end we will receive our full salvation, in the end we will receive our full gloried state.
Pulling out line after line of scripture means nothing if you are missing the BIG PICTURE Steve.
Hi there Deborah!
Loooooooonnnnnggg time no speak. Chris suggested I visit DTW for a change to update myself on all the fights you have to sit up with, and I’m so glad to note your fire and conviction has not dwindled since we last spoke. You hang in there my Sister.., you just hang in there and our Almighty God will through the workings of the Holy Spirit, give you additional strength to endure. Love in Christ, Dion
Hi Dion!!
Thank you for your encouragement!!! So much appreciated! I’m hanging in, and not going to budge ever 🙂 The truth is the TRUTH.
Yeah…and Joyce Meyer claims she does not sin no more…this is absolutely a lie and what is frightening is her following…Benny Hinn lies as well and so does Angus Buchan.
Yes all of us are sinners and not perfect but when we go on stage and blatantly tell untruths what credibility to we have in preaching the gospel…with any body who is honest… absolutely zilch!
It amazes me how people who genuinely want a changed life and salvation can fall for this…is there such spiritual blindness is the rhetorical question???
A changed life and submission to Christ’s lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.
That’s exactly what I said…putting the cart before the horse!
Hi Deb,
Sanctification brings us into …OBEDIENCE….
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
And we obey the truth through the Spirit…
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The Lord says He will reign over all except His enemies..
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
what do you think REIGN over them means?
Again in Matthew, we are told to be faithful SERVANTS:
Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Mat 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
and for the one who doesnt…
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
We are each given different gifts of the Spirit and are expected to use them..that is why we are the “body of Christ”..the foot, the hand etc..
We are also a representative…the light
Luk 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
you said “When we are saved we have assurance of our salvation”
lets look at a couple things the word says about the Spirit and the promise:
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation
For those who turn from the commandment after knowing it and being made sinless…
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Even after being sanctified by the Spirit, one can receive punishment…
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and
hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
and it is impossible to get it back once it is taken from you…
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Jesus gives many parables about following Him and having what it takes to make the journey..some make it and some don’t..only those that do the will of the Father.
Jesus tells those that honor Him with their lips and don’t have a real relationship with Him they will be refused…If it is so easy to just say a sinners prayer, why is the Bible so full of instructions..Doing the will of the Lord is an amazing journey started in childlike faith,ending in obedience,calling Jesus your Lord. Which can only be done if you have been given the free gift of God which is the Holy Spirit:
The only way to call Jesus your Lord is if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you..
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
That is why you are known by your fruits..because they are the fruits of the Spirit:
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again in Galatians, we are told to walk in the Spirit..
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Deb, with every point I make, I have used the Word of God, shown to me by the Holy Spirit.. If you are going to tell me I am wrong, show me using scripture.. chapter and verse, not personal feelings.
With Love,Steve
Steve
What are you on about? What are you trying to disprove? The entire point of this article was this:
Dear Steve
I would like for you to tell me in plain English / Afrikaans what you are actually saying, because i really do not get your point. I get the impression that you are saying that once you have sinned the Holy Spirit leaves you and then your salvation is lost and can never be regained. Is that what you are saying? Because if you are, then i am in serious trouble and can just as well end my relationship with the Lord now, because according to your theory my relationship is a one sided affair (only from my side), because i have and still do sin probably every day. I agree 100% with Deborah we cannot wait until we are pure (free of sin) and then turn to the Lord because that ain’t never gonna happen.
No Deb, Your article is titled Lordship Salvation, getting the cart before the horse.. You are telling people not to submit themselves to the will of God,and that they don’t have to turn away from their sinful ways as a condition of salvation.
Also, Good works are a result of being reborn in the spirit, not a result of Salvation.. which is received at the end.
I don’t care what name you put on it… you have to recognize Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Repent means to turn away from sin and towards God. You must learn and keep His commandments. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh…to believe in Him means to take action, to obey His teachings, else you really don’t believe.
You must turn away from your sin if you want to enter the kingdom of Heaven. To repent means turn away from, or to, reconsider.. rethink..doesn’t mean keep going, do the same thing,stay in your sin…
You show your faith and belief in Christ by turning from your sin.
You must work at repentance to show you are sincere and truly believe..that is what walking by faith and not by sight is all about!
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
You must repent first in order to be forgiven of past sins:
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
If you think you can just honor Him with your lips, and not obey His commandments, you are dead wrong. Any time you break a commandment, you ARE sinning. If you turn towards God and ask Him for forgiveness and the Holy Spirit, He will give it freely. You are then His..He is in you and you in Him..You are His temple , His place of residence..He lives in you. Do you think you can still live in sin with the Spirit of God living in you? Please reconsider some of your statements.
Have a blessed day
“Sanctification brings us into …OBEDIENCE….”
No…this is nonsense and causes confusion.God the Holy Spirit does…no experience or experiences supercede or replace direct biblical guidance…in context of course…quoting verse after verse of scripture TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT is NOT the work or guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Happenings and experiences are what the charismatics seek after…they are subjective and God always deals and leads us objectively.
Steve, you misunderstand Hebrews 6:6 among other verses you quote. It is hard to know exactly where you are going with all these verses, but I think I have a clue with Heb. 6:6.
Some mistakenly interpret this to mean that one can lose their salvation which is not the case.
Methinks you need to do a study on Eternal Security of the believer. The life of a Christian starts out being a babe in Christ needing the milk and then growing up to walk and eat meat.
Check this out for starters:
Steve
First, stop lying, second, LOL, you must be the most sinless human on this planet and you do this all by your own works (without the power of the Holy Spirit) and on top of this by your own admission your are NOT saved – because you say salvation is only received in the end.
The bible says of those who think they are sinless: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” -1 John 1:8
“Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9).
“For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Have you ever considered yourself to even be remotely foolish at times? Or are you that perfect? “The thought of foolishness is sin” (Proverbs 24:9).
Don’t comment again, it will be deleted. I get your point however ‘foolish‘ it may be.
Michael
You said it brother, he quotes verse after verse out of context. It’s amazing, I’ve never seen someone like Steve before, and I’ve have a couple of thousand people comment on this blog, but Steve completely negates the workings of the Holy Spirit. It’s like He does not even exist in Steve’s life.
Oh hold on, how could I forget Elbie lol.
[delete]
[delete – It’s true, Steve thinks he is perfect]
Steve
WHO HAS ETERNAL SECURITY:
(1) Those who continue in the word (Jn. 8:31,32).
(2) Those who follow Christ (Jn. 10:27-28).
(3) Those who bring forth fruit (Jn. 15:2; Lk. 3:9).
(4) Those who are led by the Spirit of God (Ro. 8:14-15).
(5) Those who have been born again (2 Co. 5:17; Ep. 2:10; Ga. 6:15).
(6) Those who are sanctified from an unrighteous way of life (1 Co. 6:9-11).
(7) Those who have demonstrated their election (salvation) (1 Th. 1:4-10).
(8) Those who depart from iniquity (2 Ti. 2:19).
(9) Those who maintain their confidence in Christ (He. 3:14).
(10) Those who have an undivided, convinced faith (He. 4:10,11).
(11) Those who evidence the “things that accompany salvation” (He. 6:9-12).
(12) Those who are looking for Christ’s return (He. 9:28).
(13) Those who remain patient and steadfast in tribulations (He. 10:35-39).
(14) Those who are in the truth and continue in the truth (1 Jn. 2:19-21; 2 Jn. 1-2).
(15) Those who are purifying themselves (1 Jn. 3:1-3).
(16) Those who love the brethren (1 Jn. 3:14).
DOES ETERNAL SECURITY CAUSE PEOPLE TO LIVE CARELESSLY?
Eternal security does not cause people to live carelessly. The very opposite is true. The Bible teaches that the grace of God actually motivates believers to serve God with a thankful heart (Ro. 2:4; Ep. 3:14-19; Tit. 2:11-14). The more a believer understands the unfathomable love God has for him in Christ, the more he wants to please God.
DOES ETERNAL SECURITY MEAN ANYONE WHO PROFESSES CHRIST IS SAVED, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY GIVE EVIDENCE OF GENUINE FAITH?
1. No, salvation demands repentance (Lk. 13:3-5; Ac. 2:38-42; 17:30-31). Repentance means a change of mind resulting in a change of life by the Holy Spirit (2 Co. 7:8-11). The person who has never changed his mind about God, sin, Christ, the Bible, etc., and who has never evidenced this changed mind with a changed life, has never repented and has never been saved. The Thessalonian believers exemplify biblical repentance. They “turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God” (1 Thess. 1:9-10).
2. No, salvation requires the new birth, and the new birth always changes a man’s life (2 Co. 5:17-21; Mt. 18:3-4; Jn. 3:1-18; 1 Jn. 3:10; 3 Jn. 11).
3. No, salvation is evidenced by perseverance (Jn. 10:27-28; Col. 1:21-23; He. 3:12-14; 10:38-39; 1 Jn. 2:19; 3:3). According to these Scriptures, the one who is truly born again will persevere in Christ; or it could be better stated that Christ will persevere in him!
4. No, saving faith always produces works (Eph. 2:8-10; He. 11:4, 7, 8; Jam. 2:14-26). If one claims to have faith in Christ, but his life does not reflect the works of Christ, that one does not have biblical faith. A fruitless profession of fruit cannot lay claim to God’s promises of eternal security.
Hi Debs, thanks for the email! Yep, I already downloaded the book last week and skimmed it! Will have to read it properly again!
Also read the lordship article and would like to say a few things about that, that gets confused by many….
thanks still!
So they teach Lordship Salvation at Grace to You, is this bad?
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114
What do you think about this Deborah?
Dave
Well that does not surpise me. They are ELECT after all and not really saved so anything they do is out of their own FLESH.
I’m pretty sure paul washer explained later that when he once said repentance precedes and follows faith it was a slip up, and he only meant repentance follows faith in Jesus
Eli
Your are sure? Nooooooooo you are not, you are making excuses for Paul Washer and trying to keep your fleshly conscience clean so you can carry on following Calvinist false teaching!
Steve said…Also, Good works are a result of being reborn in the spirit, not a result of Salvation.. which is received at the end.
Mixing partial truths out of context or the wrong way round is a devastating lie and causes confusion of the worst kind.
What you are really saying is salvation plus good works = an eternity in the heaven and if so what pass marks do you need in good works…only 100% will do or to you perhaps just short of that if you are so perfect.
No the bible states that we all fail miserably and mate in the good works department if you think you are that perfect you are completely deluded.
The Holy Spirit convicts you of sin…when you come to Christ you can only hate sin but because you, me and everyone else is weak and born in sin and a slave to all forms of selfishness delusions (pride and self-righteousness being the chief culprit) there is only One who can save us…thank goodness for that.
The longer I walk the Christian pilgrimage the more inadequate and imperfect I realise I am compared to the Saviour and the more dependant I become on Him which helps me to become a better person…this requires spiritual honesty.
When we become to the stage when we think we are so great and sinless…the opposite is true…we are self-deluded and there is no truth in us.
There are some things that I don’t agree with in this article. I’d appreciate it very much if they’d be published.
First , David was not a christian. To be a Christian one would have to believe in the finished work of the cross. The word Christian was only used on believers after the gospel was preached to the gentiles after the Holy Spirit was sent. David believed in the one true God.
Secondly , Peter was not born again when he denied Jesus. To be born again one must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And seeing as how Jesus wasn’t resurrected to show that He is Lord of all , how could Peter believe in Him yet ? This is why Jesus said that Peter would deny Him.
Well that’s all I have for now. Thank you for having the guts to state clearly what you believe.
My wife(ex) who as far as I know accepted Jesus as her Saviour when she was 3 years old, left me for another man 3 years ago. She kept denying that she was continuing with her adulterous relationship even until a number of months ago. Now she has brought this relationship out into the open. She does a number of other questionably unChristian, nasty things that smack of habitual, intentional sin. When confronted that she is continuing to commit adultery; because according to God’s law of marriage unless the other spouse is dead the other commits adultery Rom 7:1-3; she just gives people a Joseph prince DVD to watch. This is her licence to sin. She sincerely believes she is saved and the righteousness of God in Christ, and that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. However, she flagrantly goes out and sins, not in the “small stuff” so to speak. According to Lordship Salvation she seems to have lost her salvation and accoring to Jesus-Is-Saviour theology she has probably never truly been saved. I see a problem with both camps. People professing Christ and who live intentionally sinful, couldn’t give a damn about anybody else lives are hindering the acceptance of the gospel in the lives of unsaved people. The unsaved want to see lives of integrity that show tha Jesus actually ha made a difference in a person’s life.