Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse
The problem is that Lordship Salvation confuses the ROOT of a believer’s faith, i.e., faith in Christ (Romans 4:5), with the FRUIT of that faith, i.e., good works (James 2:18). The ROOT should bring forth the FRUIT; but the FRUIT cannot come before the ROOT. DO you understand the difference? Lordship Salvationists are demanding the FRUIT as a prerequisite to salvation. They are putting the cart before the horse.
Lordship Salvation – Putting the Cart Before the Horse
“But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew… But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.” -Mark 14:68,71
The above passage of Scripture is speaking about the Apostle Peter. Peter sinned by denying Jesus. Yet, Peter was a born-again believer. King David was a Christian; yet he conspired to have a man killed, to cover up an unwanted pregnancy, from an adulterous affair with that man’s wife. Abraham and Sara doubted God. Moses was a murderer. Samson went with a harlot. Jacob was a thief. Jonah ran from God. Noah got drunk. Isaiah was a man of unclean lips. These were God’s best and brightest.
Lot was a worldly believer. Yet, 2nd Peter 2:7 calls Lot a “just” man. The Lordship Salvation crowd would have considered all of these men unsaved. Yet, we see they were saved.
This subject needs to [be] preached about on a regular basis, because the damnable heresy of LORDSHIP SALVATION has infiltrated our churches, and is leading multitudes into Hell.
What is “Lordship Salvation?” Lordship Salvation is the unbiblical teaching that a person MUST cease from a sinful lifestyle to be saved. Lordship Salvationists pervert the true meaning of the word “REPENT” in the Word of God. Whereas Biblical repentance means that a person recognizes their guilt of sin (Romans 3:19); Lordship Salvationists corrupt the meaning of the word, teaching that a person must cease from living a sinful lifestyle to be saved. God does not ask us to give up anything to be saved. Eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23). Salvation is receiving, not giving. God gave us His only begotten Son, Jesus, to pay our debt of sin. All we have to do to be saved is to acknowledge our guilt of sin, coming to God on that basis; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive our sins (Acts 10:43).
In 2nd Peter 3:9 we read, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” The Greek word for “repentance” here is “METANOIA” and literally means “a change of mind.” Not a change of lifestyle; BUT, a change of mind. The changed life should follow afterwards; but the Bible is filled with examples of saints who continued to live in rebellion and sin, such as Solomon and Samson.
Turning from Unbelief verses Turning from One’s Sins
“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” -Mark 1:15
Carefully notice in Mark 1:15 above that Jesus didn’t say “repent ye, and turn from your sins.” No, Jesus clearly stated, “repent ye, and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.” It is plain to see that Biblical repentance is a change of one’s mind concerning sin and unbelief, which causes that soul to turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Jesus never once said to a person, “Give up all your sin and then I’ll save you.” No, rather, Jesus said “Go, and sin no more” after making them whole (John 8:11). All God asks is that we come for salvation through His dear Son (John 3:16).
We must be extremely careful when we tell lost sinners that they need to be willing to turn from their sins to be saved. I have read many Gospel tracts that give the impression that a person MUST forsake their sins to be saved-which is NOT true at all. A person DOES need to REPENT of their SINS to be SAVED, but that change begins in the mind and may take some time to show in that person’s personal life (1st Peter 2:2). The ONLY repentance which God requires of a man to be saved is for that man to acknowledge his sinful condition and; thus, recognize his desperate need for a Savior.
I certainly think it would be reasonable for a repenting sinner to desire to turn from his or her sins; BUT, as we learn from countless believers in the Bible, that’s not always the case. Judges 16:1 states, “Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her.”
I am NOT condoning sin. I am simply saying that Christians at best are people, and people at best are still sinners.
Lordship Salvation is rooted in self-righteousness, for all Christians are sinners. If living in sin can cause a born-again believer to lose salvation, then we all lost it a long time ago, for all have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 7:14-25). It is solely by Christ’s merciful righteousness that we are saved (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Lordship Salvation and the Pentecostal Charismatic heresy of losing one’s salvation are related monsters. Lordship Salvationists ADD works to faith to GET saved, and the Charismatics ADD works to faith to STAY saved. Regardless, these two damnable heresies are both rooted in works salvation!
The Change Comes AFTER a Person is Saved, NOT before.
The internet is plagued with heretics who are teaching that a person must forsake their sinful life to be saved. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 reads, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Please notice that a man does NOT become a “new creature” until AFTER he is in Christ. The change comes after a person is saved, NOT before.
If a person claims to be a Christian but is still living a wicked lifestyle, still living in perpetual sin, then I would sincerely doubt that person’s salvation as well. However, I am not going to start teaching damnable heresy by saying that sinners must forsake all their sins in order to be saved. Salvation comes through childlike faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; nothing may be added.
Once a man becomes a new creature in Christ, THEN and ONLY THEN he begins to change. Lordship Salvationists are sanctimonious (i.e., hypocritical in their beliefs) in that they are sinners themselves. The entire notion that a lost sinner must give up sin to be saved presents a serious indictment against Lordship Salvationists … “For all have sinned…” (Romans 3:23). Let he who is without sin among you teach Lordship Salvation.
A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance; and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.
My question to you is: Are there 2 Gospels?
- The Gospel of John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Paul Washer, Jack Chick, Aiden Tozer, and others, requires that a person forsake (or be willing to forsake) their entire lifestyle of sin, make amends, and change their ways, as a prerequisite (beforehand) to saving faith.
- The Biblical Gospel teaches that we are saved solely by Christ’s righteousness (Romans 10:3-4), and that no self-righteousness of any kind is required (Titus 3:5), because we have none to offer (Isaiah 64:6); neither does a person have to quit any sin to be saved (Romans 4:5-6). Repent of their sins, yes. After we are genuinely saved, are we a new person in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit abiding in us, chastises us when we sin, as we grow in Christ-likeness, and change our ways to sin no more. But we will never be sinless because the bible says so.
A lot of Christians have brushed the issue aside as a matter of semantics, but the difference between the 2 Gospels is day and night. One includes a certain degree of self-righteousness, which is a false Gospel; but the other is solely based upon Christ’s righteousness, which is by the precious literal, physical, blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” -John 3:16
Lordship Salvationists, in a futile attempt to support their false doctrine, paint an ugly picture of their opponents. They allege that we believe people can happily indulge in open sin with no remorse whatsoever. That is simply not the case at all. God doesn’t give anyone permission to sin (Romans 3:31).
Please remember that Biblical repentance IS A CHANGE OF MIND. A person who is genuinely saved now has a different attitude. If a man is a true Christian, he won’t have the haughty attitude that he can continue in open sin with no consequences. Each believer has the Spirit of Christ living within (Romans 8:9). This is the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 12:8 makes clear that God will CHASTISE His children. The Holy Spirit always convicts the believer of unrepentant sin. In sharp contrast, the heathen unsaved world knows not God, and sins with no remorse or concern for the things of God.
Lordship Salvationists are wrong when they they attack Bible-believing Christians with shallow accusations which simply CANNOT be substantiated with the Scriptures. A person who has been genuinely saved has repented concerning their sins, i.e., they acknowledged their GUILT of sin and believed on Christ for forgiveness.
The heresies that Lordship Salvationists teach are not found anywhere in the Scriptures. They mandate repentance FROM sins to be saved, but this is not Scriptural. Biblically, we are to repent OF our sins, i.e., our sinful condition. God says we are all sinners (Romans 3:10,19-23).
Repentance from sin is an entirely different matter. Just because a person believes upon Christ as Savior doesn’t automatically mean that their life is cleaned up. It takes time for a new believer to grow in the Lord (1st Peter 2:2). A new believer doesn’t instantly stop drinking, smoking, cursing, etc. It takes time to grow in grace.
Lordship Salvationists are hypocrites because they expect a sinner to change instantly in order to get saved. Lordship Salvation prohibits anyone from coming to Christ for salvation who isn’t willing to forsake all their sins. So then how can anyone be saved? No one can forsake ALL their sins, otherwise they’d be perfect, and only Jesus Christ is without sin (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15).
Explaining Repentance
I believe repentance is necessary for salvation. Mark 1:15, “…repent ye, and believe the gospel.” The Greek word for ‘repent’ here is ‘metanoeo,’ which translated into English means ‘to change one’s mind.’ It does not mean to stop sinning, since that would mean self-righteous works for salvation. We are commanded to repent and believe the Gospel; not repent and turn from sin. We turn to Jesus to be forgiven of our sins; we don’t turn from our sins in order to trust Jesus.
If a person has to stop committing sin to be saved, then how can anyone be saved? There is much confusion over the phrase “turn from sin,” but if the Biblical teaching that eternal life is a free gift is not forgotten, then the truth becomes very clear. A gift cannot be earned. Salvation is not a reward, it is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15; 6:23).
When a sinner must ‘turn from sin’ to be saved, he simply means that a sinner must renounce all their sins. But renouncing one’s sins is quite different than ceasing from committing sin (when one is trying to get saved). Biblical repentance is a change of mind. Paul Washer teaches that repentance is a change of life; but that is wrong. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance, and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith.
Biblical repentance unto salvation means turning to Jesus Christ to be forgiven of one’s sins; not turning from one’s sins to trust in Christ. When a man turns to Christ by faith, he has turned his back against sin. This is why we find the word ‘believe’ mentioned 85-times in the Gospel of John, but the word ‘repent’ is never mentioned even once. Thus, the man who believes on Jesus has repented, and the man who repents has believed on Christ. The solution to sin is not education, legislation, rehabilitation, nor reformation; but regeneration. Repentance and faith are inseparable. They occur simultaneously. Lordship Salvationists attempt to divide repentance and faith, but you cannot.
Many false prophets, such as Ray Comfort and John MacArthur, misinterpret the meaning of repentance as ceasing from a sinful lifestyle. The Bible does not teach that. This heresy is commonly referred to as ‘Lordship Salvation,’ which I DO NOT believe at all. Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” We are saved by the IMPUTED righteousness of Jesus Christ.
We are saved solely by Jesus’ righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness in any way. The desire to forsake one’s sins is not a prerequisite to faith in Christ. The sincere admission of one’s guilt of sin for breaking God’s commandments is sufficient. The only requirement is for a person to realize that they have sinned against God and; therefore, need a Savior. It is not what we can do for God that saves us; but rather, what Jesus Christ did for us through His work of redemption. Jesus paid a debt that He did not owe, because we owed a debt that we could not pay.
Hi Deborah,
I’m not a calvanist, but I’d love to discuss some of the things you say you presently believe (we know this changes sometimes as you are convinced differently) but would you be willing to do it sincerely without the cynical immature comments which is really not necessary if your aim is to help edify and enrich the biblical understanding of others? after all this is not a comedy website and we don’t visit it to laugh or poke fun at others who sincerely believe differently.
You’ve made it clear what you believe concerning salvation, and I do feel a bit like I’m preaching to back-slidden christians, who are usually doubly less receptive to bible truth, but here goes:
To the UNSAVED, God has OFFERED (not yet given) the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION to those who BELIEVE on his name. And for those who CHOOSE to believe and CHOOSE to accept this FREE gift from God, they need to REPENT (realize, be sorry for, feel ashamed, and hence make a decision to try and turn away from) their SIN. The God offering this gift HATES sin, sent his son to die on the cross BECAUSE of this sin, and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you, but so does that reduce the requirement laid down by GOD as recipients of that FREE gift?
You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift. do u in other words dispute the parable of Jesus about those who hear (and believe) but later they fall away, choked by the worries and cares of this world? …that gift was there for the moment then it fell away when they let it go. We need to run the race until the end, to ATTAIN the prize (reward) for serving our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Do you dispute that too with the many thousands of other bible scriptures, as you try to advocate the meaning of the word GIFT?
Yours humbly,
Elbie
Burning Lamp wrote:
Elbie
You talk about immature comments, I think you should point the fingers back at yourself. (where you say, “and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you and…. “and I do feel a bit like I’m preaching to back-slidden christians, who are usually doubly less receptive to bible truth”) – shocking, what’s your problem? And right now I am not sure what you are trying to say…
>> To the UNSAVED, God has OFFERED (not yet given) the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION to those who BELIEVE on his name. And for those who CHOOSE to believe and CHOOSE to accept this FREE gift from God, they need to REPENT (realize, be sorry for, feel ashamed, and hence make a decision to try and turn away from) their SIN. The God offering this gift HATES sin, sent his son to die on the cross BECAUSE of this sin, and to take up our cross daily means to be CRUCIFIED daily with Him, as we make decisions not to live a life which serves the lust of the our sinful nature and of this world. It might sound like an impossible task to you, but so does that reduce the requirement laid down by GOD as recipients of that FREE gift?
You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift. do u in other words dispute the parable of Jesus about those who hear (and believe) but later they fall away, choked by the worries and cares of this world? …that gift was there for the moment then it fell away when they let it go. We need to run the race until the end, to ATTAIN the prize (reward) for serving our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Do you dispute that too with the many thousands of other bible scriptures, as you try to advocate the meaning of the word GIFT?
Are you trying to imply that I don’t believe in repentance of sin and living a holy life through the conviction of the Holy Spirit? If so I have no idea where you get this because this is NOT the case. A GENUINE Christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and WILL live a life that is pleasing to God to the best of his/her abilities. We can’t take up our cross and follow Jesus of our own flesh, only obedience to God’s commandments through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your life will allow a genuine Christian to do this. Those who hear and believe but later fall away are nominal believers – those who have a form of godliness but deny God’s power (there are hundreds of millions of these kinds of people). We do not know the hearts of people, only God does.
>> You’re right we don’t have to pay for it, but we have to work at it in order to attain it. No payment can buy it, but NOT laying down your life of sin will stop you from RECEIVING that gift
You are putting the horse before the cart.
Are you sinless? You must be, because according to you, unless you don’t lay down your life of sin you won’t get saved. Which now leads us to ONE BIG PROBLEM. There is only 1 SINLESS person I know, and that is Jesus Christ, not Jesus and Elbie.
LB, I am confused. Are you saying my comments are immature and are you saying I am treating those who disagree with derision and thinking it is funny?
LB, a heretical doctrine needs to be taken seriously and that is what I thought I did.
And I will address what you said about living the Christian life. When one TRULY accepts Christ, one is SEALED by the Holy Spirit. That seal cannot be broken and we are kept in the Body, NOT by our own efforts, but by the promise of God.
We still have the sinful nature, so we will sin. But our ATTITUDE toward it should reflect our rebirth. If we disobey the Lord we will not lose our salvation, but we are still accountable. If we do not confess our sins, the Lord will CHASTEN us just as we discipline our disobedient children. But we ARE His children. Sin has consequences, but for the truly born-again believer it is not to lose their salvation.
BL
I updated my comment (please re-read) and fixed the spelling error in yours.
Deborah
Thanks for your reply. Your very last comment is the very type of thing that I’m referring to. Seems as if its intended to offend and cause a reaction. I however wont be sucked into mud slinging games. I enjoy some of the articles on this website though, but I can assure you that many would prefer it without the “facetious” style comments.
Ok back to the point. We serve an awesome and Holy God and we are guilty no matter what gift is waiting in store for us. First we need to be forgiven, and THEN we receive. But we are forgiven when we acknowledge and repent of our sins. So you say this is a backward gospel?
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and (then) inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Like I said Im not Calvinist (nor do I wish to be branded as follower of any doctrine other than what comes straight out of Gods word) so im not siding with any Calvinistic views….all im saying is that you are unnecessarily confusing many people by reversing scriptural salvation to push the point of the “free gift” thus leading people to believe that they can be born again when they have not or refuse to repent of their sins. Scripture is clear enough. Don’t take lightly Gods caution of adding to the scripture what is not there. NOWHERE does it openly declare that you do not have to repent to be born again. On the contrary, over and over it pleads with us to repent and be forgiven and to accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen
Elbie
Like I said, point those fingers back at yourself! I’m not speaking to you anymore, run along and go play nasty somewhere else.
I have already CLEARLY stated how BIBLICAL salvation and repentance of sin works. If you want to work hard for your salvation by your own works, then go for it. I on the other hand have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ALREADY (sealed) , He convicts me when I sin and I repent and do my best to not sin again. Only the Holy Spirit can tell you when you are sinning and only He can help you overcome sin. If you are trying to stop sinning by yourself then you are fooling yourself.
Elbie
Where has Deborah “laughed or poked fun at others who sincerely believe differently?” Her fight is for the truth that others don’t spend eternity in hell and her fight is against principalities of evil not people! What is so funny about that? Do you see her articles and comments as such, because then you have a form of self Godliness, in fact, you are unsaved because you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in you, therefore you do not have any assurance of your salvation.
Your salvation is generated from your own fleshly ‘ability’ to overcome your sins on a daily basis.
Is your salvation a burden to you? What happens to you if you just happen to think of something that you should not have (a sin) and before you can ask God to forgive you, you happen to die (i.e. a sudden heart attack, a car crash etc.) what happens to you then? or are you perfect? and I am not laughing or poking fun at you, I am extremely serious.
Dear Elbie your comment…”Seems as if its intended to offend and cause a reaction. I however wont be sucked into mud slinging games. I enjoy some of the articles on this website though, but I can assure you that many would prefer it without the “facetious” style comments”.
I detect pride (lack of humility) in this.First of all it is you who taking offense and defending your over-sensitive feelings. You have also over-reacted and I suspect you will react to this over and over again instead of trying to be objective and truthful…you have exagerated and exageration is a deceitful human reaction but it is nevertheless a lie…Deborah, mudslinging?? I do not recall ever seeing this…she stands up for the biblical truth and yes she is human and gets angry when people argue against it and do not bother to read the truths therein and try to defend their own selfish and compromised misconceptions which they pick up from mentors that teach error.
Stop being a hypocrit and yes look deep in your heart and repent of this attitude.
Thanks Debs – I sometimes make mistakes – I have impaired eyesight that makes it hard to read the small print.
Elbie just can’t seem to grasp the simple plan of salvation, but it is one that man manages to complicate.
And Jemfishy…you are right mate…well said…could not have said it better myself.
Having said that I want to make it very clear…I do not patronise any human being, least of all myself…we all are so imperfect…I have only one mentor and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.
The huge problem in the church today is that people look at men and women to follow and set them up on a pedestal…this is where it goes wrong…there has always been a sinful human tendancy to worship men and woman and make them “gods”…the Virgin Mary,St Paul,Moses,Elijah,the Pope,John Calvin,Billy Graham,John MacArthur,Benny Hinn, Angus Buchan etc etc. They follow the idol and defend them. Nothing has changed…1Cor3:4…For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
1 Corinthians 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Man is manipulative, sinful and full of pride, even his outward humility is false.This is where Satan plays his hand and that is why the church is in chaos…if each and every true believer focused entirely on Jesus and read the scriptures honestly and searched them with an honest heart.
Brethren…go to Jesus only and see no other worthy of praise…go to Jesus for your needs…go to Jesus for your healing. Trust Him completely and accept His answers and never have the audacity to hold God to ransom as the false teachers do when they teach “name it and claim it”
I just want to add…that mankind will never find God in people…only in Christ. Our humanness craves love and the approval of people especially those we admire and see good qualities in…sadly although there is no wrong in this tendancy in itself…this tendancy is polluted and contaminated by sin, and Satan will use this to misdirect us. Satan will use good works as a red herring and a smoke screen to take you off-track. He uses people in the scriptures to follow…people that were godly and great saints,people that were as close to Jesus Himself…nothing is closer by human standards as a mother and worthy of respect, Jesus’s best friends…his disciples when he was on earth but they were all sinners that needed to be saved. The sinful flesh never seeks the true God but wants a “god” on it’s own terms. A “god” that winks at sin,
a “god” that you can worship in your own way, a “god” that is friendly communal “god” that wants unity with prostituted religions. They do not realise you cannot find God on your terms only on His. You see you cannot see God because He is Holy,Omnipresent,Omnipotent and Omniscience…our sin separates us from this and that is why God had to send a man, His Son in the form of man to breach the barrier and die for us…a love no man can ever understand because it’s God’s love…nevertheless He came in the flesh for us to see,to speak,to heal, to show His concern and eventually He gave Himself for us all because He knows we will perish without Him and spend an eternity in hell…separated from Him forever.
The normal,carnal man hates this and so other religions were started.Pagan worship,false gods and prophets and even false Christianity. The Crusaders were false, the Inquisition, the Pope, the RC church,
the Mormoms, the 7th Day eventists, the Jehovah Witnesses but this was not enough. Now the deception is right amongst us in the so-called “true believers”…Oral Roberts,the Hagans,Joyce Meyers,Osteen,Jakes,Benny Hinns…the extreme W.O.F movement creeping in, the Angus Buchan followers who have been influenced and relate to these new teachings…Dominionism, Prosperity,Name it and Claim it, you have no victory if you are poor and sick, and Kingdom Now teachings which if you really read and study the scripures with a total honest and surrendered heart are quite clearly wrong. I really doubt if people who start this have been saved.They follow Jesus on their own terms…a reinvented saviour and not the One in the scriptures.
When people who are affiliated with these movements or have been influenced by them come on this website they will immediately react because the flesh has been offended, their selves, their beliefs, their feelings, their mentors and their heroes.
so how were YOU born again debbie? share your testimony with me.
Elbie
I tell you what, why don’t you answer the questions already posed to you by me, BL and Jemfishy.
You come on this blog and accuse me like the father of lies himself and then expect me to be all accommodating to you. Not. If you had the Holy Spirit in you Elbie you would not need to hear my testimony to know I am a genuinely born again Christian because the Holy Spirit in you would confirm that what is said on this website is ENOUGH TESTIMONY to the TRUTH. But you hear nothing, because there is no Holy Spirit in your life and you proved that in your FIRST comment where you left out the workings of the Holy Spirit.
Elbie
Even Spurgen who I don’t like to quote said the following
Perhaps this can put into perspective the position of Charles Spurgeon who the Calvinists LOVE to put out there as their poster boy. I think he may been conflicted on this matter and there is no doubt of his love and concern for lost souls. Following is a quote from an excellent website that stands for sound doctrine: (Debs, please put in the block quotes as I am so computer-challenged.)
Spurgeon was NOT a Calvinist on all points, though he may have thought he was. I sincerely believe that Spurgeon didn’t quite fully understand Calvin’s teachings. Read Surgeon’s comments on this Calvinist doctrine as he understands it…
BL
I dunno hey, I’ve read some stuff by Spurgeon that has made the hair stand up on my neck! But anyhow, I don’t want this to turn into a discussion about Spurgeon. I want Elbie to face upto the questions posed to him.
It is by faith that we are saved, not by works. But we must be careful to understand faith according to how the Bible describes it. Galatians is written to make sure none stray into thinking they add to grace by their own righteousness, because if salvation could have been by works, Jesus would not have died. But James was also written, so that none would think that an empty faith without a heart repenting and obeying was possible (even the demons believe and tremble). It is not faith and repentance and confession and baptism, but the sort of faith that repents, that confesses, that obeys the Lord in baptism. That sort of faith. A faith that continues in deliberate rebellion is not Biblical, saving faith. A faith that thinks it ‘adds’ to God’s grace by works is not Biblical faith. So we rest in God’s salvation, even while, with the help of God’s indwelling Holy Spirit, we strive to obey God.
It is concerning to me to see how quickly Deborah decides that Elbie can’t be saved and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit. Her reasonings for this do not sound Biblical but more based on anger at his responses. The fact that he had not yet mentioned the Holy Spirit’s workings in his short posts is not a logical reason for deciding he does not have the Holy Spirit, nor a Biblical reason. If he believes in Jesus, then he does have the Holy Spirit. We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did for us on the cross. We are not saved by a perfect understanding of all scripture, and definitely not a perfect agreement with Deborah. Be careful, Deborah, you sound like someone whose anger leads them to jump to harsh and unloving conclusions.
Sharon
It is concerning to me that you are not concerned that Elbie does not think that I am a Christian and questions my salvation, but yet I can lambasted for responding to Elbie in a tone to what he deserved. You seen quite happy to have him insult me over and over and over again, but if I open my mouth, I must be reprimand. If Elbie’s salvation is by works then he needs to go and sort out his salvation with Jesus Christ and quickly.
>> If he believes in Jesus, then he does have the Holy Spirit.
Wrong, it depends WHAT Jesus he is referring to (a false Jesus – yes). And if his gospel is leavened with doctrines of demons then his Jesus is most definitely NOT the biblical Jesus.
Be careful Sharon who you point fingers at!
Sharon, you speak truth until you turn on Deborah for questioning if Elbie is truly saved after he challenges her.
There are basic fruits that even young Christians will display to show that they are truly born-again. To comment on these observations is not judging the heart, it is merely raising the question. That, my dear, is the loving thing to do. Yes, Deborah has spunk and spice in her responses, but if she didn’t have those qualities she would have thrown in the towel long ago – most people would not endure under the heavy hand of destructive criticism directed at her day after day.
BL
>> There are basic fruits that even young Christians will display to show that they are truly born-again.
Exactly and genuine Christians do NOT attack one another as Albie has done to us.. It is obvious something is horribly wrong.
>> Yes, Deborah has spunk and spice in her responses, but if she didn’t have those qualities she would have thrown in the towel long ago – most people would not endure under the heavy hand of destructive criticism directed at her day after day.
I am slowly morphing to look like a duck; I got the feathers…(it’s water off my back) – I’m just missing a beak, and some webbed feet LOL.
[deleted – it would appear that Elbie is not one bit interested in answering our questions, he is not even reading them – so I am deleting his comments from now on – The spirit that speaks through this man is certainly not of God based on the things he has said and what he believes and his actions so far.]
[EDITED by DTW: See comment by PW here: Calvinism – What would these pastors have done if they were there ]
PW/Pieter & cohorts . . .
If you think Debora is “harsh” in her replies, then the Bible, it’s Message and Christianity is NOT for you. In fact I don’t think you will “like” God when you will stand before His throne one day. He is really harsh. Do you KNOW that He hates sin and WILL sent you to a very harsh environment forever if you don’t repent and submit to him ?
Debora is only following Christ and his example like we are commanded to do.
Jesus himself got “a little” harsh and literally whipped people out of the Temple, He rebuked the church leaders and called then Snakes, Hypocrites and Vipers, He called King Herod a Jackal etc.
Apostle Paul imitated Christ by being very direct and “harsh” and then explains why he is so “harsh”.
Gal 1:9 What we have told you in the past I am now telling you again: If anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that person be condemned!
Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of people or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be Christ’s servant.
Paul then also instructs others to follow his example to do the same !
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
So, PW/Pieter & cohorts… Stop playing God by un-righteously judging followers of Christ. Let’s focus on the message and leave the “packaging” alone. Just because YOU feel that the message is coming to you in a “harsh” packaging, will not be an excuse accepted by God for not accepting the TRUTH that is inside the Parcel.
The packaging can’t save you!
[deleted – apparently Elbie can’t stay away from DTW and continues to spew mean nasty words.]
I just noticed that the article states:
1.The Gospel of John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Paul Washer, Jack Chick, Aiden Tozer, DAVID CLOUD, and others, requires that a person forsake (or be willing to forsake) their lifestyle of sin, make amends, and change their ways, as a prerequisite to saving faith.
This really shocked me as I did not believe that Brother Cloud teaches this. So I found this clarification by David Cloud –
he had been accused of teaching Lordship Salvation, but this is definitely not the case. I felt the need to clear his name. I don’t agree with his KJV only stance, but on all other issues we are on the same page.
I was also shocked to see Tozer listed. I haven’t picked up on this in his writings, but that requires further research.
Lordship Salvation is a subtle, deadly error that creeps in and needs to be exposed. Thank you for posting this.
BL
Cool, what I will do is remove his name. Thanks for doing the research I was going to go and check this evening – you have saved me a whoooole lotttaaaa time 🙂
I would like to apologize, my intention was never to attack Deborah or any one on this blog. Further I am not defending Elbie as a person. I merely stated that we should always be careful how we present ourselves and our faith on open blogs. There are allot of young Christians and generals seekers of the truth that reads open platforms and my fear is that this might drive people away from the faith totally. Again this was/is only my opinion and was never intended to insult, aggrieve or sow division.
I tried explaining this in length in post to this site, which was deleted. That is 100% the administrators right to do, since protecting the faith and integrity of this site is very important. Looking back at the letter I said and stated things I truly regret today. Please accept my apology.
I never expected anyone to compromise their conviction. If my comments indicated that intent I apologize for that as well. I have always been beter at communicating verbally than written.
Sincerely I apologize for any comments that was deemed wrong from me.
To just clear up something, I am not trying to hide under different names, I use PW or Pieter on various blogs and the other day wrongfully used PW when responding here. If allowed back to comment I wil ensure to use Pieter so that there is no future confusion.
Kind Regards
Pieter
PW
>> There are allot of young Christians and generals seekers of the truth that reads open platforms and my fear is that this might drive people away from the faith totally
Once you understand that not I, not you, not Angus and his happy-go-lucky laugh can save people but Jesus Christ you will understand that if people are seeking the truth they will HEAR THE TRUTH (the message itself) because the HOLY SPIRIT IS ALREADY SPEAKING TO THEM. If there is no Holy Spirit involvement in their life (because the person has chucked the Holy Spirit out the door long ago), then dude all the lovely happy words in the world is not going to change anyone. You completely fail to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit – HE is the one that leads us into all truth (not this blog) and HE CONVICTS us – not me. Do you understand? Seriously. This is a question I am asking.
I forgive you Pieter (PW) no harm done.
Thank you Deborah
Yes I do understand.
Pieter
Groovy!
First, Peter did not have the Holy Spirit while Jesus was with Him. The Spirit is the replacement Jesus promised when he left.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Second, receiving of the Holy Spirit is the definition of Born again.. third,If you think you can just say a “sinners prayer and be “Saved”, you are in big trouble…Lets look at a few scriptures for the final word:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Gal 5:19 -21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Jesus even said it …
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
To repent means to reconsider, to turn away from or to turn in a new direction. to believe means to take action…be a doer of the word and you wont sin…if you are truly reborn and have the Spirit of God in you, your sinful nature will go away as you grow in the Word:
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
The Lord wants all of His children to turn away from the works of Satan and turn towards Him.. doesn’t mean that all will. Don’t be lukewarm or God will refuse you at the gate:
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
If you are the same person you were before asking the Lord to take over your life and guide you, then either it never happened or you are ignoring the Spirit of God:
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
God Bless, I hope this opens some eyes and ears…