What does the Bible say about Mary, Queen of Heaven?
Jeremiah 7:18 (Amplified Bible)
“18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!
Queen of Heaven – A goddess of fertility, probably the Babylonian title for Ishtar. She is identified with the planet Venus. Offerings to this goddess included cakes made in the shape of a star (Jerermiah. 44:17-19).
Jeremiah 44:25 (Amplified Bible)
“25Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have both declared with your mouths and fulfilled it with your hands, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed to burn incense to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to her. [Surely] then confirm your vows and [surely] perform your vows! [If you will defy all My warnings to you, then, by all means, go ahead!]”
The Queen of Heaven in the bible is a Babylonian goddess whom people worshiped. She has been incarnated to Roman Catholicism under the name ‘Mary’, Mary, Queen of Heaven. Many Catholics would deny that Mary worship is part of Catholicism but unfortunately this is not true as she holds a special place in the hearts of many.
All over the world, Catholics have one celebration after the next dedicated to Mary, the Queen of Heaven. Everything that is done for the Queen of Heaven is sinful; baking a cake, observing Lent, lighting a candle, or burning incense. God abhors idolatry, and worshiping the Queen of Heaven is a damnable heresy. God is clear that idolatry provokes Him to anger as seen in Jeremiah 7:18.
Isaiah 42:8 (Amplified Bible)
8I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.
In revelations, Mary, Queen of Heaven is Rome:
Revelation 18:1,7,14-17 (Amplified Bible)
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted: “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evilspirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. 3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”
7Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’
14“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn16and cry out: ” ‘Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!
But Jeremiah is not the only time the Queen of Heaven is mentioned:
Isaiah 47:5 (Amplified Bible)
5 “Sit in silence, go into darkness, Daughter of the Babylonians; no more will you be called queen of kingdoms
Lamentations 1:1 (Amplified Bible)
1 How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
This is what Mary, Babylonian Queen of Heaven, Queen of Kingdoms had to say to a Dutch lady by the name of Ida Peerdeman back in November 16, 1950/1 :
Prayer for the world:
Lady of all Nations
“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father send now Your Spirit over the earth. Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations that they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war. May the Lady of all Nations, who once was Mary, be our Advocate. Amen.”
“Now the moment has come for you to speak about Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate under the title of the Lady of all Nations (“Co” meaning companion, co-operating with but subjugated and not equal to the Redeemer. This must be duly stressed). She later added: “It may be asked why this title is not mentioned in the messages of the first five years. It is because the dogma of the Assumption had to come first.”
In April of that year, 1951, she added:
“The new dogma will be the dogma of the Co-redemptrix. I emphasize ‘Co’. I have already said how much controversy this dogma would arouse. The Church of Rome will have a long struggle over it, but will finally proclaim it. The image and its dissemination – this is the prerequisite to the dogma. This image will be the emblem of the Co-redemptrix. The Lady, Mother, has suffered the sufferings of the Son, both spiritual and corporal.”
She later explained to Ida: “By the will of the Father, the Redeemer came into the world. For that, the Father had recourse to the Lady. From the Lady, and from her alone, the Redeemer took flesh and blood; that is to say, His body. From my Lord and Master, the Redeemer received His divinity. In this way the Lady became the Co-redemptrix by the will of the Father. I do not come to bring any new doctrine. The doctrine already exists. Say this to your theologians: ‘Already from the beginning, she was Co-redemptrix. …That is why the Lady of all Nations has been compelled to come now, in these present times, for she is the Immaculate Conception and, as a consequence of this, the Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. These three are but one.” —http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/loan/loan.htm
On May 31, 1996 Bishop Henrik Bomers and his auxiliary Bishop Josef Punt officially approved veneration of Mary under the tile of Our Lady of All Nations.
Lady of All Nations Prayer Day 2010 – Amsterdam
Mary has appeared under many names over the centuries, here are but a few:
Mary, Queen of Heaven (Rome)
Arianrhod (Welsh) Goddess of fertility
Aprodite (Greek) Goddess of fertility
Ashteroth (Phoenicians and Canaanites) Goddess of fertility
Astarte (Eastern Mediterranean/Bronze Age) Goddess of fertility
Anahita (Persian) Goddess of fertility
Anu (Celtic) Goddess of fertility
Aveta (Gaulish) Goddess of fertility
Brigit (Irish) Goddess of fertility
Ceres (Rome) Goddess of fertility
Corn Mother (Native American) Earth Goddess/Goddess of fertility
Cybele (Rome) Goddess of fertility
Demeter (Greek) Goddess of fertility
Freya (Scandinavian) Goddess of fertility
Frigg (Scandinavian) Goddess of fertility
Gaia (Greek) Mother goddess
Hathor (Egyptian) Goddess of fertility
Haumea (Hawaiian) Mother goddess
Inanna (Sumerian) Goddess of fertility
Ishtar (Babylonian/Assyrian) Goddess of fertility
Isis (Egyptian) Goddess of fertility
Juno (Rome) Goddess of fertility
Kali (Indian) – Black earth mother/Goddess of fertility
Kostroma (Slavic) Goddess of fertility
Mylitta (Sumerian) Goddess of fertility
Oshun (Afro/Cuban) Goddess of fertility
Rainbow Snake (Aborigine) – Earth Goddess/Goddess of fertility
Deborah Ellish is the author of the above article.
Discerning the World is an internet Christian Ministry based in Johannesburg South Africa. Tom Lessing and Deborah Ellish both own Discerning the World. For more information see the About this Website page below the comments section.
Again, when disagreeing it is important not to judge another’s heart or motives. Also, it is important to extend grace while dispensing truth.
Because one person chooses to divorce themselves from Xmas does not make them holier than others. That is a works mentality. Perhaps there are underlying reasons for continuing to celebrate it such as keeping peace in one’s household or coming to an understanding as God reveals. It is what is in the heart that matters to God and He is the only One who has the right to judge. It is GOD in the Holy Spirit that convicts. In the meantime, in these matters it is the spirit of the law to extend grace. That is being kind and not being caustic. Jesus gave the greatest commandment is love. That is not always warm and fuzzy, but it does mean extending the hand of fellowship and not displaying an air of superiority. All of us are sinners saved by grace and have all made our mistakes. Grace and peace.
Do you think that if someone is a Christian and they celebrate Christmas they are committing a heinous sin? (for instance to keep peace in the household)
Hello, again. I have to get sleep sometimes! Oh- I forgot, you’re on the other end of the world and stay up talking while I sleep!
I’ve gotten quite a character-bashing here, haven’t I? And it’s all because I dared teased Deborah about the KJV conversation. Enough to write me off completely, eh? (Thank you Deborah for having my back this time 😉
What you will notice about me is that I am not concerned with my opinions or the opinions of others. God has clearly laid out His opinions in a 66-Book work of art- and that is all that matters. I realize that determining someone’s kindness through the virtual world is difficult, to say the least. And what you don’t know about me is that I am not an unkind person, however, I do deal in Truth and speak it when necessary. I do agree with Deborah that Truth is painful. It never gets easier. What I have learned is that we never have it completely figured out, “[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.” Proverbs 25:2. I am, at heart, a Berean. I never take someone’s word for anything, but search the Scriptures daily to see if it is so. I have found that it has saved my life, nothing less. Everybody can be so concerned that they may “step on someone’s toes” so that they will leave someone in error. I am thankful for all those who have been bold enough to tell me Truth! If God says, “Hot! Don’t touch!” I back away, while others like to flirt with how close they can get to the fire without getting burned. That seems like tempting the Lord our God. He will graciously warn us, but when we reject His offer of Truth to the point that they have “their conscience seared with a hot iron;” 1 Tim 4:2, we are on our own. I never want to be at that place.
I took a break from this website for a time a couple of months ago because I had a new baby. I eventually began visiting and enjoyed reading past articles and ongoing conversations amongst its visitors. BL- I read through many of your comments. I found irony in much you had to say. On past occasions, you seemingly contradicted some of the very same things you have said now. If Deborah posted an article warning about a false teacher and a guest commentator would disagree with her, you would say it is necessary to hold their teachings against Scripture, and that, in fact, Scripture gives us the authority to test those who claim the same faith against the Word. When I said I had concerns about The Berean Call, you seemingly jumped down my throat. That is just one example. I am just wondering what your standards are, if not solely the Word of God? It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word. Why do you fight me about Christmas, as if it were my opinion I was giving? Who cares what I think? “This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” 1 Tim 1:15 and “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2. Your battle, along with the others who turn a blind eye to the Truth about X-mas, is with the Word, not me. “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.” John 15:18. You fill paragraphs with your opinions, but Scripture warns me to give not heed to vain opinions and philosophies of man. Your “opinion” is that you should partake in X-mas to “keep the peace” in the household! Where is that in Scripture? “And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.” Matt 10:36. Lk 12:51-53 “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against her mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”
Does it matter what your heart or motives are if you’re willfully disobeying God? And do you really think I have the time/interest/need in figuring out a person’s “feelings” on a matter? Subsequently, Scripture warns those driven by emotion are foolish in that Eve was deceived by her emotions. Also, I really have no need to judge someone’s heart when Scripture tells me that “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:” Matt 5:19 and “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jer 17:9. Again with your “opinions”.
I don’t think when someone uses Scripture to reprove, rebuke, and correct me, it is them having a superiority complex, I just think it’s Truth versus opinions. Truth wins. No matter who speaks it. You mention “love”. Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Jn 14:15. This means not looking for clever loop-holes to get out of obeying His Word.
Deborah, you asked if I think it is a heinous sin to celebrate X-mas. Again, it doesn’t matter what I think, right? Like I’ve mentioned before, in the book of Judges God clearly states His opinion on His people partaking in the pagan culture’s celebrations. I think the story of the Israelites throughout history proves God means what He says when He tells us to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness and to touch not the unclean thing. I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!
On the topic of the King James Bible. BL- you’re quick to lump me in with some crowd you obviously do not care for, and therefore willing to refute everything I say based off of that one issue. It seems you are looking for an excuse to reject what I say. That’s fine by me. I won’t answer to God for those who rejected what I said, but I will answer if I don’t say anything at all, just like anyone who claims The Faith.
I am not in the KJV-cult. I believe in its sufficiency and I believe it is an honest standard for those of us who speak English. My concerns about other versions comes after much research from where the more modern translations have stemmed from. Jude, amongst others, exhorts us to contend for THE faith. I think the KJV is a strong, main source from which all remnant believers can contend. Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations. I’m sure we can all agree that The Message is apostate, but some would say not, right? So, who’s to say who’s right about which translations are acceptable, especially considering many of the errors found in modern translations? People use the excuse that the King James is hard to understand. I disagree. The Lord really does grant understanding, so that it is no different than reading a recipe. My children, all under 5, can understand it perfectly well and recite it accordingly. I just appreciate THE Word for THE Faith, rather than cherry-picking versions.
Ok, so there’s my book for the day. I have a cramp…
Thanks your your answer, what you have said is pretty much what I thought you would say. And I doth have toeth agreeth. (practicing my old English here lol)
Regarding the KJV, I understand what you mean, but I really do love my Amplified 🙂 And yes in my article on KJV Only I give a list of 4 translations good enough to read including the KJV, the rest should be ignored.
I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!
One simple question:
We do not earn our way to heaven, it is a free gift. If a believer is disobedient, as a child of God, he/she is then chastened. Also, there will be an account given at the Bema Seat, but we will not lose our salvation.
Regarding the KJV – sorry if I misjudged you on this issue – glad to hear you are not KJV only. BTW I would not call it a cult. I know some sincere believers who are in error on this – that does not mean they are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do a Bible study (yes, I do study the Bible) with a friend and she uses the KJV-I use the NKJV. When I read the NKJV minus all the archaic language, it is much clearer. Certainly the Holy Spirit is our teacher, but God gave us a brain and the thees and thous are not the way we speak.
I tried to extend grace to you sister and tried to speak truth to you. You seem to set yourself up as the judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.
I don’t think I “jumped down your throat” about Dave Hunt. I was just not so quick to judge him but wait and give him the benefit of the doubt.
You said to me:
It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word.
There you go again Mom, passing judgment not realizing that is what you are doing. The Word is my guide and has been for over 50 years. That journey has taken me through a wide range of experiences, many of them painful, but God has been faithful through them all. He is my Savior, my Counselor, my Father, my Teacher and my Lord. I make mistakes, but since He is my Redeemer, He forgives me and I go to Him to repent. That is my accountability.
Yes, I have opinions, but to the best of my ability they are based on the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. God gives us thoughts and opinions – godly gifted men have written commentaries on the Bible. This is called exposition of the Word. It is not the Bible and still calls for us to be Bereans, but it is helpful and tools that God gives us to help us understand His Word. There are also Bible study tools to help us apply the Word by teaching us CONTEXT and how to APPLY God’s principles to our lives. Also, interaction with faithful brothers and sisters is helpful, as happens on Debs blog.
There is much more than simply pulling out a verse and tossing it out. Of course, one must be wise in selecting a commentary and study tools, but God has made them available for our benefit. We ignore them at our peril. God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.
I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God of grace and mercy? He is holy and righteous. but He understands our frailties. He does not wink at sin, and He paid a price for our salvation that we cannot begin to comprehend, but he is compassionate, longsuffering and patient. There is coming a day when His wrath will be unleashed upon the world and His Bride will be taken home to safety. Until then we are under grace. Grace is often abused and that is an affront to God, but I am thankful for His mercies that are new every morning!
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor. 13:2 NKJV
These are difficult times with leaven pouring in and the enemy coming in like a flood with the remnant of those who still stand for truth in his sites. We cannot afford to devour one another – we must encourage one another as the day draws near and exhort one another in love.
When we differ on issues that one has to sort out according to one’s own situation as to how to best approach with God’s guidance we must show grace and allow the Holy Spirit to teach others as He has taught us. What is important to God is the heart that desires to serve Him and is growing. We are still all under construction in one way or another. I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it. Which is the greater sin – celebrating Xmas or causing a division between husband and wife? Shouldn’t the wife pray for her husband toward this end and allow God to work in HIS heart? This is not opinion, this is rightly dividing the Word and applying its principles. Not offering an “opinion” on this is in my view a cop-out.
When I was your age – child-bearing age, I thought I had a grasp on things as I was raising my family. Hindsight is humbling. 🙂 I read my Bible and walked in the light I had then, but I made many mistakes. Hopefully, I have learned something and matured more as a believer, but I only seem to have learned how much more I need to learn. We can never fully plumb the depths of God’s Word.
Quite frankly, at first I was hurt and discouraged by your comments, but the Lord gave me some insight. I even considered just going away and never commenting again, but I think you are worthy of a “rebuttal”. If we could meet face to face over a cup of coffee I think we would become friends. I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.
I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.
What I meant to say:
I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue NOT to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.
I might add this could be either a believing husband or one who is unsaved. The greater issue in the case of the unsaved is their salvation, not the legal question of celebrating Xmas. With the Christian husband, the wife is to be respectful and reason with him and discuss it. If he does not agree, she should back off and allow God to work in his heart. Yes, that ais my opinion, but it is based on biblical principles.
I believe this is only the second time in my short 1+ years as a Christian that I’ve heard someone take instruction (I fail at it too) … Praise God and thank you Deborah.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
Mom4truth / BL You know when I was writing about the presents part I had conviction about that, because if I give presents and receive presents I am partaking in the actual pagan celebration. Oi vey… lol. You are right, and as harsh as your words seem (which they aren’t) you are 100% correct. When we find out the truth on a matter (ESPECIALLY considering the TIMES WE LIVE IN) we have to obey Jesus’ commandments on these issues. We are to come out of Babylon, not stay in her. And God is calling us out of her at this time.
Thanks for your comment. As I said somewhere, we all have things in our lives and when we learn the truth we gotta do something about it. We are dealing with Jesus here, not eachother. I try my best to be a humble servant (not to people – some people like to use this type of thing as an opportunity to make you bow down to them, when they themselves are wrong). I pray that your 1 year as a Christian becomes 3 years and 4 years and thennnn…zooopssssss Jesus comes to take us home 😉 (don’t count on my time line, I am hoping Jesus comes back tomorrow)
You know, BL, my family left a church a couple of years ago that calls itself a “post-modern” church. Blatantly on their website they define “post-modern” as someone who derives their sense of truth from experience, rather than the Word. And this is precisely the way that you come across. Whatever your 50 or so years of experience you are so proud of has taught you seems to be your basis of truth, rather than acknowledging the only source of Truth- and that is the Word.
I would like to address your comments in order to the best of my ability (And I hope I use this comment thing right!):
Burning Lamp wrote:
BTW I would not call it a cult. I know some sincere believers who are in error on this – that does not mean they are not my brothers and sisters in Christ.
You say that I “set myself up” as some sort of judge/jury, yet isn’t this the very thing you are doing here with this comment? You say your “brothers and sisters” are in serious error because they refuse to read any other translation? And what authority do you have to determine that they are in error for doing so? I am thankful for those who stand by their conviction, and will not read another translation either. Error? I think not. Perhaps that is not something you should even touch…
Burning Lamp wrote:
I tried to extend grace to you sister and tried to speak truth to you. You seem to set yourself up as the judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.
Do you think signing every post with “grace and peace” to you makes you sound more “Biblical”, when nothing else of your comment comes from Scripture? And do you think it makes you seem more “friendly” to call me sister, while shredding everything else about me? Spare me, please. Do you even hear yourself? “…set yourself up as judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.” So, am I supposed to assume that God has a different set of rules for every person, regardless of the pre-set rules in Scripture? You’re right I use the Word as the standard, why don’t you? The Holy Spirit will not guide someone apart from His Word. This is exactly the erroneous doctrine Deborah works so hard to warn of! If your “spirit” is having you play by a different set of rules, it is a false one, I can assure you of that. Gal 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
Burning Lamp wrote:
You said to me:
It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word.
There you go again Mom, passing judgment not realizing that is what you are doing.
And this is precisely why I said “seem” to be doing these things. It sure “seems” this way when you fill paragraphs with your feelings and opinions and use no Scripture to back up these opinions. I don’t have to dig real hard to see that.
Burning Lamp wrote:
Yes, I have opinions, but to the best of my ability they are based on the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. God gives us thoughts and opinions – godly gifted men have written commentaries on the Bible. This is called exposition of the Word. It is not the Bible and still calls for us to be Bereans, but it is helpful and tools that God gives us to help us understand His Word. There are also Bible study tools to help us apply the Word by teaching us CONTEXT and how to APPLY God’s principles to our lives. Also, interaction with faithful brothers and sisters is helpful, as happens on Debs blog.
There is much more than simply pulling out a verse and tossing it out. Of course, one must be wise in selecting a commentary and study tools, but God has made them available for our benefit. We ignore them at our peril. God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.
Seriously? We ignore people’s opinions of interpretation of Scripture to our own peril? I don’t think so. Extra-Biblical revelation: closed! I may derive some sense of understanding as iron sharpens iron, but I would be completely safe to lock myself in a room with the Word, without any opinion of man. It sounds like you are setting yourself up as a legitimate prophet of God, with “commentaries” I ignore at my own peril. “God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.” What? So, there are times God discredits the sufficiency of His Word in favor of a more modern approach? Post-modern!
2 Tim 3:16 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Burning Lamp wrote:
I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God of grace and mercy?
Wonder away, “sister”. But God sees our willful ignorance. And I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God who demands judgment, righteousness, purity, and holiness. We have no excuse to wallow in our sin once we have been graciously warned. The fact that the Lord warns us is proof of His grace.
Burning Lamp wrote:
I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it. Which is the greater sin – celebrating Xmas or causing a division between husband and wife? Shouldn’t the wife pray for her husband toward this end and allow God to work in HIS heart? This is not opinion, this is rightly dividing the Word and applying its principles. Not offering an “opinion” on this is in my view a cop-out.
1 Peter 3 exhorts wives to behave in such a pure and chaste way that these unbelieving husbands may be won over without a word. Is fleshy living pure and chaste behavior? And do you really believe the God of the Bible would violate His Word in order to accommodate an unsaved person? (I am not opening that up for your opinion, rather a Bible verse that proves it is so.) Would you think I wouldn’t advocate for praying for your husband? That certainly is a Biblical concept. If it were my husband, I would say, “My faith demands purity and I will no longer celebrate a day that is purely devoted to the worship of false gods. I cannot stop you from doing so, and will not attempt to, but I am simply not going to participate.” You find me a Bible verse that is not out of the post-modern playbook to defend our open participation in pagan rituals.
Burning Lamp wrote:
When I was your age – child-bearing age, I thought I had a grasp on things as I was raising my family.
In the last post, you put me down because I don’t consult any other version of Scripture than KJV. Now you put me down because I’m young! You skim my writings to look for ways to discredit me.
1 Tim 4:12 “Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.”
Burning Lamp wrote:
I even considered just going away and never commenting again, but I think you are worthy of a “rebuttal”.
I’m “worthy” of a rebuttal? Gee, thanks. Now who has the superiority complex? If you are so convinced of the righteousness of your decisions, whatever they may be, then why would you become so upset as to never comment again? It seems, if you are confident of your opinions, then you would feel utterly confident to stand toe-to-toe with whomever to converse about Truth. And, subsequently, why do you feel the need to defend your decisions? If your life-style mirrors Scripture, then you are on the right path. Again, who cares what I think?
And, can I ask a question? Deborah said she agreed with me on a few occasions as we have carried on this dialogue. Why do you write full-on commentaries refuting me, while ignoring that the Deborah whom you follow has said similar things? It doesn’t make sense. It’s not you two against the world. It’s okay to disagree with her from time to time.
But, perhaps, it is just safer to isolate a visitor.
Thank you, Deborah, for the congrats. She is just perfect! I wanted to shout it from the mountain tops when she was born…I even thought about having my husband post it on your website the day she was born. But what category would that fall under? 😉
God’s grace does not allow for one to willingly sin. If the bible says its wrong, then it’s wrong. We are to turn away from sin, not carry on in it, or run too it. The Holy Spirit does not give 1 message to one person and another conflicting message to another. He has one standard only. BL you should be convicted of this by the Holy Spirit which I actually believe you are.
Boy you ladies sure know how to beat up on a person – at least that is how it feels. I have been called postmodern, a hypocrite, etc. Again, where is the grace?
Curious that M4T didn’t address my concern over her statement about entering the Promised Land and the basic issue of sslvation. If one does not have that right nothing else matters.
Also, I said I was sorry if I misjudged M4T on the KJV issue.
If we consider ourselves an island with no need for input from other believers, we are sadly mistaken. This is NOT extrabiblical revelation and that is why God raised up pastors and teachers and distributes the various gifts so the Body can operate as one. We need each other. M4T are you familiar with the scriptures referring to the gifts and offices in the Church? I agree that many of them have fallen away, but there are resources available that God intends for us to use as Bereans, using His Word as the final authority in all things.
Also, M4T cut off my hand of fellowship and didn’t even thank me for the following remarks I left at the end which I meant sincerely. (I can’t get the block quote thing to work.)
I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.
Why did she not even extend me the courtesy of a kind word and treated me like an enemy?
I am now being told HOW the Holy Spirit is working in my life – M4T talked about isolating a visitor – that is exactly what is being done here – to me. I poured out my heart and said what the Lord meant to me but this is all discounted as insincere simply because I don’t think everyone can totally and immediately fall into line with the Xmas issue.
This will be my last post not because I am upset or disgruntled, but because my credibililty has been torn to shreds and I do not feel welcome here anymore.
Oh my word… I think I am just going to just laugh quietly because this is flipping ridiculous.
BL, you have nothing nice to say to Mom4Truth and even when you say you do, it’s snyde. I think you need to look at the 4 other fingers pointing back at you as you point fingers at us.
This is one of those cases where because I don’t agree with you now all hell breaks lose for you and you stamp your feet on the floor. Well tough luck! Get over yourself, cos scripture is clear on the matter. As for your credibility torn to shred…? Nonsense. You have managed to do that all by yourself.
BL wrote: If we consider ourselves an island with no need for input from other believers, we are sadly mistaken. This is NOT extrabiblical revelation and that is why God raised up pastors and teachers and distributes the various gifts so the Body can operate as one. We need each other. M4T are you familiar with the scriptures referring to the gifts and offices in the Church? I agree that many of them have fallen away, but there are resources available that God intends for us to use as Bereans, using His Word as the final authority in all things.
Yeah yeah, this applies when scripture is applied correctly not incorrectly. And what gift are you referring to BL? The one were you get to tell us how good it is to celebrate a pagan holiday? No, no, no nooooo. And I am not an island – there are many many born again believers out there who agree with me and mom4truth on this issue.
And one last thing. We are not pushing you away, you are the one running away. I have not once said you must stop commenting or go away. Have I? No. You can carry on celebrating Christmas until the cows come home for all I care BL – what you do is between you and Jesus.
It irritates me when I am pushed into a corner to accept ‘unity’ over biblical truth. This has now happened twice over the last few weeks; the first time I chose the Word of God over other people’s opinions (which ended up making me an outcast). This time I chose the Word of God over your opinion BL. I can’t tolerate being told I am being nasty when I choose the Word of God over compromise – it hurts my feelings. Thank goodness I have my husband who is my best friend, because surely if it was not for his total 100% support, telling me to NEVER compromise, I would be a very lonely.
Can I ask you a question, if I may. I have been reading this conversation and I have to ask, why is it so important to you to choose a snowman over scripture?
I too used to celebrate Christmas in all it’s glory until one day I found out what it really stood for. I was shaken to the core, and yes, I did not stop immediately, which was wrong, but I stopped because it’s wrong.
What you do is up to you, but when does it end? What else will you compromise on. Debra said that the Holy Spirit does not convey one message to one person and another conflicting message to another. Why are you the odd one out?
Sid, you totally misunderstand – I don’t put snowmen over Scripture! What in the world would make you think such a thing? That is ridiculous! And excuse me, but there is nothing sinister about snowmen even if they are not mentioned in the Bible. 🙂
It was my intention to no longer comment on this thread but felt that this required a response.
I value biblical truth more than you could ever know. I am sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I want to please my Lord and I am accountable to Him. I realize the pagan roots of Christmas, but it is not a pagan ritual at my home.
We have taken something that Satan meant for evil and we have turned it into something that honors our Saviour. This is NOT the same as the Roman church taking a pagan celebration and turning it into another pagan celebration. This is not Christianizing paganism in my view.
There are those who debate the date. I can’t control that. But it is a time when the world is open to talking about Jesus Christ. The world does not view it as a pagan celebration, so it is not a bad witness to recognize the day as long as it is done in a Christ-honoring way.
There are many people who don’t darken the door of a church who will come to a program and hear the Gospel. Those who disagree will find fault with this. That is certainly their right and are entitled to their opinion.
Good and faithful Christians, (even those in discernment ministries) differ on this matter. It is not a litmus test for one’s salvation.
I respect Debs and M4T and others who believe as they do and are being obedient to their conscience. Yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually in matters such as this. It is different concerning the issue of salvation and certain bedrock of doctrine which is absolutely non negotiable.
We have hashed this issue out and each has stated their case. Now let’s let it rest and let there be peace. Follow your conscience and then allow others to do the same. This will be my last comment on this matter as I believe the debate has run its course-at least as far as I am concerned.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread. 18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? (1 Cor 10:14-22)
Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[b] this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. (1 Cor 11:23-26)
If Jesus wanted us to remember his birthday he would have told us too, but he has not, he did tell us to remember him by communion only.
There is a distinct difference between our conscience and the Holy Spirit. We are not obedient to our conscience, but the Holy Spirit! You are welcome to follow your conscience, we will obey the Holy Spirit.
“Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations.”
I marvel at the reasonings used to justify the celebration of Christ-mass (hey, my flesh can scream too … my grown, unsaved children despise my new stand and think I’m a nut).
The very same types of reasonings are being used for the church to justify celebrating Halloween (my aunt’s church holds a Halloween costume party each year).
All roads (holidays) lead to Rome. That’s where all of this is headed. Slowly boiling the (Christian) frog in the pot of ecumenical water.
The mother of Jesus, Mary, is not a whore. Catholics honor Jesus’ mother and I don’t have a problem with “honoring thy father and they mother.” Why you would is a bit weird.
Esther is more than likely the whore, she seduced the King, God isn’t mentioned one time in the book of Esther. If you read up on Purim it is all about making cookies and cakes.
If you have an opinion fine, but don’t come across like you know something and screw up the rest of the world.
Thanks.
P.S. See failedmessiah.com for the real pedophiles. Obviously the Catholic Church is not in charge or they would not be broadcasting how bad they are on television. The failedmessiah is stuff you don’t hear on television.
The REAL Mary who IS the mother of Jesus Christ is not a whore, the FAKE Mary the Roman Catholic Church worship is the Goddess of fertility they call Mary. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
a special HOT place for you deceiver, you’d do better to leave the internet entirely Deborah
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Again, when disagreeing it is important not to judge another’s heart or motives. Also, it is important to extend grace while dispensing truth.
Because one person chooses to divorce themselves from Xmas does not make them holier than others. That is a works mentality. Perhaps there are underlying reasons for continuing to celebrate it such as keeping peace in one’s household or coming to an understanding as God reveals. It is what is in the heart that matters to God and He is the only One who has the right to judge. It is GOD in the Holy Spirit that convicts. In the meantime, in these matters it is the spirit of the law to extend grace. That is being kind and not being caustic. Jesus gave the greatest commandment is love. That is not always warm and fuzzy, but it does mean extending the hand of fellowship and not displaying an air of superiority. All of us are sinners saved by grace and have all made our mistakes. Grace and peace.
Mom4truth
Do you think that if someone is a Christian and they celebrate Christmas they are committing a heinous sin? (for instance to keep peace in the household)
Hello, again. I have to get sleep sometimes! Oh- I forgot, you’re on the other end of the world and stay up talking while I sleep!
I’ve gotten quite a character-bashing here, haven’t I? And it’s all because I dared teased Deborah about the KJV conversation. Enough to write me off completely, eh? (Thank you Deborah for having my back this time 😉
What you will notice about me is that I am not concerned with my opinions or the opinions of others. God has clearly laid out His opinions in a 66-Book work of art- and that is all that matters. I realize that determining someone’s kindness through the virtual world is difficult, to say the least. And what you don’t know about me is that I am not an unkind person, however, I do deal in Truth and speak it when necessary. I do agree with Deborah that Truth is painful. It never gets easier. What I have learned is that we never have it completely figured out, “[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.” Proverbs 25:2. I am, at heart, a Berean. I never take someone’s word for anything, but search the Scriptures daily to see if it is so. I have found that it has saved my life, nothing less. Everybody can be so concerned that they may “step on someone’s toes” so that they will leave someone in error. I am thankful for all those who have been bold enough to tell me Truth! If God says, “Hot! Don’t touch!” I back away, while others like to flirt with how close they can get to the fire without getting burned. That seems like tempting the Lord our God. He will graciously warn us, but when we reject His offer of Truth to the point that they have “their conscience seared with a hot iron;” 1 Tim 4:2, we are on our own. I never want to be at that place.
I took a break from this website for a time a couple of months ago because I had a new baby. I eventually began visiting and enjoyed reading past articles and ongoing conversations amongst its visitors. BL- I read through many of your comments. I found irony in much you had to say. On past occasions, you seemingly contradicted some of the very same things you have said now. If Deborah posted an article warning about a false teacher and a guest commentator would disagree with her, you would say it is necessary to hold their teachings against Scripture, and that, in fact, Scripture gives us the authority to test those who claim the same faith against the Word. When I said I had concerns about The Berean Call, you seemingly jumped down my throat. That is just one example. I am just wondering what your standards are, if not solely the Word of God? It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word. Why do you fight me about Christmas, as if it were my opinion I was giving? Who cares what I think? “This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” 1 Tim 1:15 and “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2. Your battle, along with the others who turn a blind eye to the Truth about X-mas, is with the Word, not me. “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.” John 15:18. You fill paragraphs with your opinions, but Scripture warns me to give not heed to vain opinions and philosophies of man. Your “opinion” is that you should partake in X-mas to “keep the peace” in the household! Where is that in Scripture? “And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.” Matt 10:36. Lk 12:51-53 “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against her mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”
Does it matter what your heart or motives are if you’re willfully disobeying God? And do you really think I have the time/interest/need in figuring out a person’s “feelings” on a matter? Subsequently, Scripture warns those driven by emotion are foolish in that Eve was deceived by her emotions. Also, I really have no need to judge someone’s heart when Scripture tells me that “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:” Matt 5:19 and “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jer 17:9. Again with your “opinions”.
I don’t think when someone uses Scripture to reprove, rebuke, and correct me, it is them having a superiority complex, I just think it’s Truth versus opinions. Truth wins. No matter who speaks it. You mention “love”. Jesus says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Jn 14:15. This means not looking for clever loop-holes to get out of obeying His Word.
Deborah, you asked if I think it is a heinous sin to celebrate X-mas. Again, it doesn’t matter what I think, right? Like I’ve mentioned before, in the book of Judges God clearly states His opinion on His people partaking in the pagan culture’s celebrations. I think the story of the Israelites throughout history proves God means what He says when He tells us to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness and to touch not the unclean thing. I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!
On the topic of the King James Bible. BL- you’re quick to lump me in with some crowd you obviously do not care for, and therefore willing to refute everything I say based off of that one issue. It seems you are looking for an excuse to reject what I say. That’s fine by me. I won’t answer to God for those who rejected what I said, but I will answer if I don’t say anything at all, just like anyone who claims The Faith.
I am not in the KJV-cult. I believe in its sufficiency and I believe it is an honest standard for those of us who speak English. My concerns about other versions comes after much research from where the more modern translations have stemmed from. Jude, amongst others, exhorts us to contend for THE faith. I think the KJV is a strong, main source from which all remnant believers can contend. Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations. I’m sure we can all agree that The Message is apostate, but some would say not, right? So, who’s to say who’s right about which translations are acceptable, especially considering many of the errors found in modern translations? People use the excuse that the King James is hard to understand. I disagree. The Lord really does grant understanding, so that it is no different than reading a recipe. My children, all under 5, can understand it perfectly well and recite it accordingly. I just appreciate THE Word for THE Faith, rather than cherry-picking versions.
Ok, so there’s my book for the day. I have a cramp…
Mom4truth
Thanks your your answer, what you have said is pretty much what I thought you would say. And I doth have toeth agreeth. (practicing my old English here lol)
Regarding the KJV, I understand what you mean, but I really do love my Amplified 🙂 And yes in my article on KJV Only I give a list of 4 translations good enough to read including the KJV, the rest should be ignored.
M4T, you said:
I certainly don’t want to be excluded from the Promised Land on the basis that I would not obey Him!
One simple question:
We do not earn our way to heaven, it is a free gift. If a believer is disobedient, as a child of God, he/she is then chastened. Also, there will be an account given at the Bema Seat, but we will not lose our salvation.
Regarding the KJV – sorry if I misjudged you on this issue – glad to hear you are not KJV only. BTW I would not call it a cult. I know some sincere believers who are in error on this – that does not mean they are not my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do a Bible study (yes, I do study the Bible) with a friend and she uses the KJV-I use the NKJV. When I read the NKJV minus all the archaic language, it is much clearer. Certainly the Holy Spirit is our teacher, but God gave us a brain and the thees and thous are not the way we speak.
I tried to extend grace to you sister and tried to speak truth to you. You seem to set yourself up as the judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.
I don’t think I “jumped down your throat” about Dave Hunt. I was just not so quick to judge him but wait and give him the benefit of the doubt.
You said to me:
It seems your standards of approval are your own, without accountability. It seems you work solely off your own opinion, rather than A standard, which is the Word.
There you go again Mom, passing judgment not realizing that is what you are doing. The Word is my guide and has been for over 50 years. That journey has taken me through a wide range of experiences, many of them painful, but God has been faithful through them all. He is my Savior, my Counselor, my Father, my Teacher and my Lord. I make mistakes, but since He is my Redeemer, He forgives me and I go to Him to repent. That is my accountability.
Yes, I have opinions, but to the best of my ability they are based on the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. God gives us thoughts and opinions – godly gifted men have written commentaries on the Bible. This is called exposition of the Word. It is not the Bible and still calls for us to be Bereans, but it is helpful and tools that God gives us to help us understand His Word. There are also Bible study tools to help us apply the Word by teaching us CONTEXT and how to APPLY God’s principles to our lives. Also, interaction with faithful brothers and sisters is helpful, as happens on Debs blog.
There is much more than simply pulling out a verse and tossing it out. Of course, one must be wise in selecting a commentary and study tools, but God has made them available for our benefit. We ignore them at our peril. God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.
I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God of grace and mercy? He is holy and righteous. but He understands our frailties. He does not wink at sin, and He paid a price for our salvation that we cannot begin to comprehend, but he is compassionate, longsuffering and patient. There is coming a day when His wrath will be unleashed upon the world and His Bride will be taken home to safety. Until then we are under grace. Grace is often abused and that is an affront to God, but I am thankful for His mercies that are new every morning!
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor. 13:2 NKJV
These are difficult times with leaven pouring in and the enemy coming in like a flood with the remnant of those who still stand for truth in his sites. We cannot afford to devour one another – we must encourage one another as the day draws near and exhort
one another in love.
When we differ on issues that one has to sort out according to one’s own situation as to how to best approach with God’s guidance we must show grace and allow the Holy Spirit to teach others as He has taught us. What is important to God is the heart that desires to serve Him and is growing. We are still all under construction in one way or another. I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it. Which is the greater sin – celebrating Xmas or causing a division between husband and wife? Shouldn’t the wife pray for her husband toward this end and allow God to work in HIS heart? This is not opinion, this is rightly dividing the Word and applying its principles. Not offering an “opinion” on this is in my view a cop-out.
When I was your age – child-bearing age, I thought I had a grasp on things as I was raising my family. Hindsight is humbling. 🙂 I read my Bible and walked in the light I had then, but I made many mistakes. Hopefully, I have learned something and matured more as a believer, but I only seem to have learned how much more I need to learn. We can never fully plumb the depths of God’s Word.
Quite frankly, at first I was hurt and discouraged by your comments, but the Lord gave me some insight. I even considered just going away and never commenting again, but I think you are worthy of a “rebuttal”. If we could meet face to face over a cup of coffee I think we would become friends. I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.
Oops – What I said:
I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.
What I meant to say:
I don’t think God will frown on a woman whose husband is not on the same page with the Xmas issue NOT to demand that they immediately stop celebrating it.
I might add this could be either a believing husband or one who is unsaved. The greater issue in the case of the unsaved is their salvation, not the legal question of celebrating Xmas. With the Christian husband, the wife is to be respectful and reason with him and discuss it. If he does not agree, she should back off and allow God to work in his heart. Yes, that ais my opinion, but it is based on biblical principles.
Mom4truth
Congratulations on the new little one 🙂 I pray everything goes well.
I believe this is only the second time in my short 1+ years as a Christian that I’ve heard someone take instruction (I fail at it too) … Praise God and thank you Deborah.
Deborah (Discerning the World) wrote:
FollowsTheWay
Thanks for your comment. As I said somewhere, we all have things in our lives and when we learn the truth we gotta do something about it. We are dealing with Jesus here, not eachother. I try my best to be a humble servant (not to people – some people like to use this type of thing as an opportunity to make you bow down to them, when they themselves are wrong). I pray that your 1 year as a Christian becomes 3 years and 4 years and thennnn…zooopssssss Jesus comes to take us home 😉 (don’t count on my time line, I am hoping Jesus comes back tomorrow)
You know, BL, my family left a church a couple of years ago that calls itself a “post-modern” church. Blatantly on their website they define “post-modern” as someone who derives their sense of truth from experience, rather than the Word. And this is precisely the way that you come across. Whatever your 50 or so years of experience you are so proud of has taught you seems to be your basis of truth, rather than acknowledging the only source of Truth- and that is the Word.
I would like to address your comments in order to the best of my ability (And I hope I use this comment thing right!):
Burning Lamp wrote:
You say that I “set myself up” as some sort of judge/jury, yet isn’t this the very thing you are doing here with this comment? You say your “brothers and sisters” are in serious error because they refuse to read any other translation? And what authority do you have to determine that they are in error for doing so? I am thankful for those who stand by their conviction, and will not read another translation either. Error? I think not. Perhaps that is not something you should even touch…
Burning Lamp wrote:
Do you think signing every post with “grace and peace” to you makes you sound more “Biblical”, when nothing else of your comment comes from Scripture? And do you think it makes you seem more “friendly” to call me sister, while shredding everything else about me? Spare me, please. Do you even hear yourself? “…set yourself up as judge and jury, using the Word, leaving no room for the Holy Spirit to work in others and to seek Him in their own situations.” So, am I supposed to assume that God has a different set of rules for every person, regardless of the pre-set rules in Scripture? You’re right I use the Word as the standard, why don’t you? The Holy Spirit will not guide someone apart from His Word. This is exactly the erroneous doctrine Deborah works so hard to warn of! If your “spirit” is having you play by a different set of rules, it is a false one, I can assure you of that. Gal 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
Burning Lamp wrote:
And this is precisely why I said “seem” to be doing these things. It sure “seems” this way when you fill paragraphs with your feelings and opinions and use no Scripture to back up these opinions. I don’t have to dig real hard to see that.
Burning Lamp wrote:
Seriously? We ignore people’s opinions of interpretation of Scripture to our own peril? I don’t think so. Extra-Biblical revelation: closed! I may derive some sense of understanding as iron sharpens iron, but I would be completely safe to lock myself in a room with the Word, without any opinion of man. It sounds like you are setting yourself up as a legitimate prophet of God, with “commentaries” I ignore at my own peril. “God uses others to speak His truth and it isn’t always quoting chapter and verse.” What? So, there are times God discredits the sufficiency of His Word in favor of a more modern approach? Post-modern!
2 Tim 3:16 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Burning Lamp wrote:
Wonder away, “sister”. But God sees our willful ignorance. And I have to wonder if you grasp that God is a God who demands judgment, righteousness, purity, and holiness. We have no excuse to wallow in our sin once we have been graciously warned. The fact that the Lord warns us is proof of His grace.
Burning Lamp wrote:
1 Peter 3 exhorts wives to behave in such a pure and chaste way that these unbelieving husbands may be won over without a word. Is fleshy living pure and chaste behavior? And do you really believe the God of the Bible would violate His Word in order to accommodate an unsaved person? (I am not opening that up for your opinion, rather a Bible verse that proves it is so.) Would you think I wouldn’t advocate for praying for your husband? That certainly is a Biblical concept. If it were my husband, I would say, “My faith demands purity and I will no longer celebrate a day that is purely devoted to the worship of false gods. I cannot stop you from doing so, and will not attempt to, but I am simply not going to participate.” You find me a Bible verse that is not out of the post-modern playbook to defend our open participation in pagan rituals.
Burning Lamp wrote:
In the last post, you put me down because I don’t consult any other version of Scripture than KJV. Now you put me down because I’m young! You skim my writings to look for ways to discredit me.
1 Tim 4:12 “Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.”
Burning Lamp wrote:
I’m “worthy” of a rebuttal? Gee, thanks. Now who has the superiority complex? If you are so convinced of the righteousness of your decisions, whatever they may be, then why would you become so upset as to never comment again? It seems, if you are confident of your opinions, then you would feel utterly confident to stand toe-to-toe with whomever to converse about Truth. And, subsequently, why do you feel the need to defend your decisions? If your life-style mirrors Scripture, then you are on the right path. Again, who cares what I think?
And, can I ask a question? Deborah said she agreed with me on a few occasions as we have carried on this dialogue. Why do you write full-on commentaries refuting me, while ignoring that the Deborah whom you follow has said similar things? It doesn’t make sense. It’s not you two against the world. It’s okay to disagree with her from time to time.
But, perhaps, it is just safer to isolate a visitor.
Thank you, Deborah, for the congrats. She is just perfect! I wanted to shout it from the mountain tops when she was born…I even thought about having my husband post it on your website the day she was born. But what category would that fall under? 😉
I know: Bobs Your- News From Around The World!
Mom4truth
Again, I agree with everything you have said, especially the last part 🙂
BL
God’s grace does not allow for one to willingly sin. If the bible says its wrong, then it’s wrong. We are to turn away from sin, not carry on in it, or run too it. The Holy Spirit does not give 1 message to one person and another conflicting message to another. He has one standard only. BL you should be convicted of this by the Holy Spirit which I actually believe you are.
Boy you ladies sure know how to beat up on a person – at least that is how it feels. I have been called postmodern, a hypocrite, etc. Again, where is the grace?
Curious that M4T didn’t address my concern over her statement about entering the Promised Land and the basic issue of sslvation. If one does not have that right nothing else matters.
Also, I said I was sorry if I misjudged M4T on the KJV issue.
If we consider ourselves an island with no need for input from other believers, we are sadly mistaken. This is NOT extrabiblical revelation and that is why God raised up pastors and teachers and distributes the various gifts so the Body can operate as one. We need each other. M4T are you familiar with the scriptures referring to the gifts and offices in the Church? I agree that many of them have fallen away, but there are resources available that God intends for us to use as Bereans, using His Word as the final authority in all things.
Also, M4T cut off my hand of fellowship and didn’t even thank me for the following remarks I left at the end which I meant sincerely. (I can’t get the block quote thing to work.)
I pray you and your family the very best and being a young mom is a real challenge in these times. May He guide you and protect you.
Why did she not even extend me the courtesy of a kind word and treated me like an enemy?
I am now being told HOW the Holy Spirit is working in my life – M4T talked about isolating a visitor – that is exactly what is being done here – to me. I poured out my heart and said what the Lord meant to me but this is all discounted as insincere simply because I don’t think everyone can totally and immediately fall into line with the Xmas issue.
This will be my last post not because I am upset or disgruntled, but because my credibililty has been torn to shreds and I do not feel welcome here anymore.
Oh my word… I think I am just going to just laugh quietly because this is flipping ridiculous.
BL, you have nothing nice to say to Mom4Truth and even when you say you do, it’s snyde. I think you need to look at the 4 other fingers pointing back at you as you point fingers at us.
This is one of those cases where because I don’t agree with you now all hell breaks lose for you and you stamp your feet on the floor. Well tough luck! Get over yourself, cos scripture is clear on the matter.
As for your credibility torn to shred…? Nonsense. You have managed to do that all by yourself.
Yeah yeah, this applies when scripture is applied correctly not incorrectly. And what gift are you referring to BL? The one were you get to tell us how good it is to celebrate a pagan holiday? No, no, no nooooo. And I am not an island – there are many many born again believers out there who agree with me and mom4truth on this issue.
And one last thing. We are not pushing you away, you are the one running away. I have not once said you must stop commenting or go away. Have I? No. You can carry on celebrating Christmas until the cows come home for all I care BL – what you do is between you and Jesus.
It irritates me when I am pushed into a corner to accept ‘unity’ over biblical truth. This has now happened twice over the last few weeks; the first time I chose the Word of God over other people’s opinions (which ended up making me an outcast). This time I chose the Word of God over your opinion BL. I can’t tolerate being told I am being nasty when I choose the Word of God over compromise – it hurts my feelings. Thank goodness I have my husband who is my best friend, because surely if it was not for his total 100% support, telling me to NEVER compromise, I would be a very lonely.
Burning Lamp
Can I ask you a question, if I may. I have been reading this conversation and I have to ask, why is it so important to you to choose a snowman over scripture?
I too used to celebrate Christmas in all it’s glory until one day I found out what it really stood for. I was shaken to the core, and yes, I did not stop immediately, which was wrong, but I stopped because it’s wrong.
What you do is up to you, but when does it end? What else will you compromise on. Debra said that the Holy Spirit does not convey one message to one person and another conflicting message to another. Why are you the odd one out?
Sid, you totally misunderstand – I don’t put snowmen over Scripture! What in the world would make you think such a thing? That is ridiculous! And excuse me, but there is nothing sinister about snowmen even if they are not mentioned in the Bible. 🙂
It was my intention to no longer comment on this thread but felt that this required a response.
I value biblical truth more than you could ever know. I am sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I want to please my Lord and I am accountable to Him. I realize the pagan roots of Christmas, but it is not a pagan ritual at my home.
We have taken something that Satan meant for evil and we have turned it into something that honors our Saviour. This is NOT the same as the Roman church taking a pagan celebration and turning it into another pagan celebration. This is not Christianizing paganism in my view.
There are those who debate the date. I can’t control that. But it is a time when the world is open to talking about Jesus Christ. The world does not view it as a pagan celebration, so it is not a bad witness to recognize the day as long as it is done in a Christ-honoring way.
There are many people who don’t darken the door of a church who will come to a program and hear the Gospel.
Those who disagree will find fault with this. That is certainly their right and are entitled to their opinion.
Good and faithful Christians, (even those in discernment ministries) differ on this matter. It is not a litmus test for one’s salvation.
I respect Debs and M4T and others who believe as they do and are being obedient to their conscience. Yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually in matters such as this. It is different concerning the issue of salvation and certain bedrock of doctrine which is absolutely non negotiable.
We have hashed this issue out and each has stated their case. Now let’s let it rest and let there be peace. Follow your conscience and then allow others to do the same. This will be my last comment on this matter as I believe the debate has run its course-at least as far as I am concerned.
Okie dokie then!
Thanks BL for responding 🙂
Burning Lamp
Flee from Idolatry
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? (1 Cor 10:14-22)
Institution of the Lord’s Supper
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat;[b] this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. (1 Cor 11:23-26)
If Jesus wanted us to remember his birthday he would have told us too, but he has not, he did tell us to remember him by communion only.
There is a distinct difference between our conscience and the Holy Spirit. We are not obedient to our conscience, but the Holy Spirit! You are welcome to follow your conscience, we will obey the Holy Spirit.
Sid
Thanks for your comment, BL however wont be replying to this thread anymore.
I agree on the distinction between our conscience and the Holy Spirit.
“Imagine if we could centralize our efforts with one standard Word- then we would all have the same message without the nit-picking over translations.”
Amen sister.
“Divide and conquer” is straight from Rome.
I marvel at the reasonings used to justify the celebration of Christ-mass (hey, my flesh can scream too … my grown, unsaved children despise my new stand and think I’m a nut).
The very same types of reasonings are being used for the church to justify celebrating Halloween (my aunt’s church holds a Halloween costume party each year).
All roads (holidays) lead to Rome. That’s where all of this is headed. Slowly boiling the (Christian) frog in the pot of ecumenical water.
Drip, drip, drip to Rome.
Amen, Follows the Way. I like the things you have to say. Can’t wait to meet you in Heaven one day!
My blessed hope too m4t!
The mother of Jesus, Mary, is not a whore. Catholics honor Jesus’ mother and I don’t have a problem with “honoring thy father and they mother.” Why you would is a bit weird.
Esther is more than likely the whore, she seduced the King, God isn’t mentioned one time in the book of Esther. If you read up on Purim it is all about making cookies and cakes.
If you have an opinion fine, but don’t come across like you know something and screw up the rest of the world.
Thanks.
P.S. See failedmessiah.com for the real pedophiles. Obviously the Catholic Church is not in charge or they would not be broadcasting how bad they are on television. The failedmessiah is stuff you don’t hear on television.
Critical thinking skills are required here.
america
The REAL Mary who IS the mother of Jesus Christ is not a whore, the FAKE Mary the Roman Catholic Church worship is the Goddess of fertility they call Mary. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
you will gnash your teeth little girl
a special HOT place for you deceiver, you’d do better to leave the internet entirely Deborah