‘Everything Must Change’ Back to Roman Catholicism
There is a conversation going on at the Emerging Africa website under the post Christian Piracy regarding my defence for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and my ongoing never to end ‘good fight’ for the TRUTH. I made a comment there which was supposed to be a 10 liner and turned into like 5 pages. If they post it they post it, otherwise I’ll just put it here.
** please note that I have added extra notes that were not included in the comment on Emerging Africa at the bottom of this article.
The comment revolves around clarifying a few issues, which I hope will put some persective on what is going on in their own Emerging movement.
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Comment at Emerging Africa is as follows:
Hi people, yes it’s me your favourite person in the whole wide world 🙂
I have read this entire thread and I am quite impressed. I just want to clarify a few things. *Ok I have come back to type this little part in *stars here because this has turned into being one seriously long comment…sorry. But then again I am sure there are books out there that are even longer that you might not complain about*
1) Judging is not about a person’s life – we judge what they say that contradicts scripture. I will never judge someone based on what they do in their life or the sin in their life, but I will say what the Word of God has to say about repentance, changing ones ways, being saved through Jesus Christ the Son of God. For instance I do not agree that homosexuality is in any way right. But I still love these people; it’s the sin that is wrong. Before God’s eyes it’s wrong. But through repentance and humbling ourselves before God through Jesus Christ we are forgiven. But that does not mean you can continue living in perpetual sin, no it means willing wanting to change your ways and not sin anymore. Again we can’t do this on our own and this is why we seek Jesus’ help. We need Holy Spirit conviction. Your own conscience is not going to cut you deeply regarding what the world thinks is morally correct or incorrect. Only God can do this in your heart.
2) The bible MUST be read literally, historically and in context and there is ALWAYS a spiritual context as well (this you won’t find being taught at universities) and it always will point us to repentance of sin. That sin is the major core of the Bible and that God is a Holy God who does not tolerate disobedience (sin from those who refuse Him), but through His grace and love for those who want to change and believe in His Son Jesus Christ will be saved – again this can only happen if you humble yourself before GOD and repent and admit we are full of sin and don’t want to be that way.
I hate quoting this cliché because it annoys me: ‘I am not perfect, just forgiven’ but right now at this point it really does ring true. HOWEVER this is taken and twisted by most ‘Christians’ as being ‘I am a Christian because I believe in ‘a’ Jesus, I am only human, can do as I want, just as long as I an good to others, God won’t be angry with me, He loves me, I don’t believe he would punish anyone.’
Yes, I am sure your earthly father never once punished you for disobeying him – Now take this punishment to a level unheard of – FOR GOD IS GOD and IF HE SAYS He will punish us, He will. HE BRUISED JESUS AND IT PLEASED HIM. I won’t argue with Him on this. You can if you want. We all love to appease our consciences and make excuses. The fact of the matter no matter how one tries to change scripture it will remain the same. People can try deconstructing it till the cows come home, it won’t change what God said.
3) I really DO understand the Emergent ‘conversation’. No really, I do. And there are many things within the Emerging… let’s call it a ‘movement’ that are not one bit biblical. I am going to say this and you can use it against me, I really don’t care but I came from a serious occult background and Jesus Christ (the biblical one) saved me from this nightmare. There are subtle and sometimes blatant occult ideas, teachings and practices with the Emergent church. For some unknown reason people seem to be deceived by the idea that in order for something to be occult it must be dark and dreary and look evil. Well no, Satan comes as an angel of Light. It does not have to be all black to be satanic. Wiccans will argue that they are not Satanists for they do ‘good’ with their magic, Satanist will argue that Wiccans are Christian because they do good with their magic. Do you see the downright ridiculousness of this? If not, try. But then things have been so contorted that now when it is presented to us all black and dreary everyone thinks there is nothing wrong with it. I just want to cry sometimes. You don’t know what you are doing. I do, because I have been there. But don’t take my word for it. Go to JESUS CHRIST – the real one and ask him.
Again you know your heart! You know if you are completely happy to wallow around in the shadows and take baby steps further and further into darkness. Or come to Jesus Christ and repent because you know it’s wrong and want to get out of this hell hole you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into.
4) The root of the emerging church is Roman Catholic and disagree as you may but the Eucharistic Christ of Catholicism is not the Jesus Christ that walked this earth and gave His life as a sacrifice for those WHO BELIEVE in Him. In other words, just because someone has a picture of Jesus or Him on a cross does not mean it’s actually Jesus Christ. Many spirits comes around with the name of Jesus, many strange beliefs use Jesus as their focal point, but it’s NOT the REAL Jesus Christ who is the Word of God made flesh (1 John 4). If you deconstruct scripture (sorry Roger, have to use your ‘deconstruct’ word here – not writing about you) you ARE under NO UNCERTAIN TERMS deconstructing Jesus Christ, you are breaking Him down and placing Him on a human level which He is NOT. He is God.
5) People do not understand who God really is. When you realise who GOD really is and even though He loves the world and its little people (that HE CREATED) so much that He would sacrifice Himself for us – does not give us license at all to disobey Him. What makes us think we are that special? Because the world really can’t handle the fact that they are weak, quite pathetic, useless and powerless without that ‘crutch’ called Jesus Christ. How much power do you think you can obtain via spiritual rituals that will make you in any way special or even 1mm closer to being like Jesus Christ? How much do we understand what ‘power’ really is in relation to God’s power to wipe us out in less than a blink of an eye. No we actually have no clue. What we think is great is miniscule and completely null and void of anything special compared to what God can do and will do to those who think they know better.
6) Believing in Jesus Christ and not changing your sinful ways means absolutely nothing. There is a big misconception that if a Muslim believes in Jesus and continues being Muslim that they are now part of the body of Christ. No. End of Story. This leads me to my next point…
7) Culture and Religion are two different things. I am going to use a ridiculous example: A tribe of indigenous people hear the Word of God and become saved. They continue to track animals, live in huts and continue with how they do normal daily life. They will however NOT want to sin and will break their Idols, stop feasts that were dedicated to their gods, and cease to believe in the spirits that spoke LIES to them in the first place. That is the difference. The ‘continued’ notion that western people force people to change their cultures and dress like westerners when they become Christian is just ludicrous. I have no idea where this is even in scripture. It’s a man made lie. Just because a Christian movement (who were wrong) tried to do this does not mean one can now trample on Christianity as a whole and start scratching out verses in the Bible.
8) I am not Calvinist, Protestant, or any other name. Truth has been shattered through history across many different Christian doctrines. Does this mean Calvinists are wrong? Nope. But there are some things within this movement/doctrine that are seriously problematic and have spawned breakaway movements (people who chose to follow the error and take it further). Am I full on cessationist? No. I believe in signs and wonders but NOT the way Word of Faith teaches it (this Christian movement is riddled with some serious occult teaching). Do I despise prophecy? No, because prophecy is the Word of God. I am not a fundamentalist either. But you can call me this if you wish.
I am a born again Christian who wants to have the best relationship (not religion), but relationship with God I can have through His Son Jesus Christ (the real one, not the Jesus presented to us in all these new movements that everyone seems to just be falling over left right and centre – Jesus said that true Christians will be hated for His name sake) – AGAIN this is twisted to ‘oh if we are being hated or persecuted then that makes us true Christians or on the right path’ – rubbish. Millions of unbelievers have been murdered and persecuted for their beliefs by other non-Christian religions throughout history, does that make them saved, and does this make them right in any way? No. Will there ever be peace? No. For this world is sinful. And all this peace talk is going to whether you like it or not end up in a place where you thought was not possible.
9) I find it highly unbelievably past the point of ridiculous that Christians who hold onto scripture, protecting orthodox Christianity that Jesus Christ taught and specifically TOLD and COMMANDED us to spread are now ‘bad, bad, bad people full of hate who want nothing but to harm others, to the point of being compared to those who tortured and murdered Christians during Inquisitions.’ Again here we have people calling themselves Christian (Rome) murdering (sinning, 10 commandment disobeying) people who refuse to believe in what they believe. I am sorry, but where in the word of God does Jesus tell any of His disciples to harm anyone let alone murder anyone who did not want to listen to them? Nowhere. So what on earth makes anyone think that a GENUINE Christian would do such a thing? Well, common logic would (you don’t need a degree to figure this out) carve it into stone that they were NOT Christian. And to make sure you were thinking properly and not completely of your mind, you would check scripture and low and behold the brain that God gave you to reason is on the right track. Moving right along…
10) You cannot incorporate occult teaching into the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Once you do this it is NO longer the gospel anymore. Simple. It’s like making pure apple juice – once you put in grape juice it’s no longer pure apple juice. Great… I am happy we understand this.
11) How do you know if you are following teachings that are unsavory and occult, well as much as anyone would want to deny this, you know if you are following something that is wrong and ungodly; EVERYONE right around the world knows in their hearts what they are really up to. Also there is so much info out there now-a-days on what is occult that if someone professes to be a spiritualist or Tolle follower and you find your ‘Christian’ friends are following the same then, well… yes… there is something horribly wrong -especially when they say they are not like really Christian, kind of, sort of go to church (see paragraph 14 were I speak about church so you don’t misunderstand me on this issue) and prefer to just do and believe in what seems right. And yes you need to judge what they are doing – God commands we test ALL things in order that we are not led astray. We are all held accountable for our own thoughts and deeds, we can’t blame anyone else for what goes on in our hearts and the things we choose to follow instead of obeying God and HIS WORD.
12) This is a general post; any reference to ‘you’ is to everyone (who wants to listen). Otherwise don’t listen. I care enough to speak the truth and stand up and be hated and called names. And no this is not the woe is me persecution speech. This is where the ‘I don’t care’ what you think comes into the picture. Almost lastly…
13) Test everything, even this thing called ‘love’ that mankind so easily showers on everyone nowadays but deep down you know if you really have love in your heart. And until you learn to love Jesus Christ the Son of God first and be saved hence you change your ways and stop offending God through the sin in your life, don’t expect to even think you can help others spiritually when you yourself have no clue what humbleness and serving God means. Seek first the Kingdom of God and all righteousness will be added unto you. And notice I am not going to literally explain this verse. This means, seek God first, through His Son Jesus Christ (Jesus is the Kingdom of God), be saved, repent, and you will be forgiven and righteousness will be given to you through getting on your knees before God and letting Him know that you will never be perfect, you make no excuses for yourself, and you are a permanent sinner who wants to ask for forgiveness permanently. Get this part right, I beg of you. Then you will know what Christ like love is. Jesus Christ was born sinless, walked this earth sinless and died sinless – to be the perfect sacrifice. We will NEVER ever, ever, ever be Him for again…HE IS GOD.
Helping people and building communities and trying to build your Kingdom on earth? Nah man… you miss the plot completely. Jesus Christ is the Kingdom of God and when you are save His Holy Spirit comes to bide in you. If you are trying to build your kingdom on the outside…well…there be a problem. And NO, this does not mean because you have the Holy Spirit in you, you now actually start becoming like Christ. Untwist this blasphemous idea that we can do what He did.
14) To be held to a membership of a church or community is a load of brainwashed nonsense. We are told to fellowship, yes, indeed, but NOT the way we have been taught. We are all accountable first to GOD and then to each other for speaking the TRUTH. To have one man and a panel of board members dictate the menu for the month when the Bible says that the Bible is GOOD ENOUGH to teach you all by your little lonesome is just showing us the control organized Christianity holds over us. And where does this notion stem from? Rome. If you don’t belong to the Mother Church then you are not catholic… sound familiar? And here the EC is following after catholic strongholds while fighting against organized religion.
So here you are trying to break down Christianity for its holds and bars, trying to create new holds and bars. Does this mean we can’t ask other GENUINE Christians for help? Just because God says the Bible His Word is good enough for teaching, rebuking etc does not mean we become geniuses overnight – this is why we are still told to fellowship BUT with Genuinely saved Christians. Not just any person who comes around and calls themselves Christian and brings with them a basket of leaven. And it makes no difference how nice you are to them they just refuse to change their ways. So, when we don’t want them around not we are being hateful. My word. What a disaster. But hey if you feel you want to hang with person who you can clearly see are not good after you told them what they were doing was not good, then great, that’s your problem to deal with in the end for not listen to GOD’s GREAT WISDOM on the matter – where He COMMANDS that you remove these people from amongst yourselves. He was not being nasty; He is telling you they are going to cause division and discourse so tell them to go away.
15) The ‘new’ church feels that they are solely responsible for changing a person’s heart by keeping them within their community in the hope that one day they will change. Have you never come across people who will do and say anything just to get a bowl of ‘free’ food? (And this has got nothing to do with starving people, I am talking about people in general), or let’s change it to ‘…will do anything to get to have their own community’. But in their hearts they are wondering how and when they will get their chance to steal your wallet and if they just happen to stab you in the process, well then to bad so sad.
WE DO NOT SAVE PEOPLE. GOD SAVES PEOPLE. We are told to preach the truth, the gospel of Jesus Christ, that’s it. And don’t come with silly questions and say, ‘oh but are you saying we are not supposed to help people’. Whatever…you know what I mean; you just choose to not want to pay attention.
No matter how you look at it, there will always be someone at the top of the food chain. This will never change. Right now the entire world wants to be on top. So how do we fix this problem? Oh, well…just make everyone equal and the ‘same’ and one global community of smurfs. Problem is, there will always be a leader. I thought it was hysterical listening to a Transformation ‘expert’ in his field talking about changing the world, and how we are all one and the same. He stands on the stage showing everyone how special he is and at the same time tells the audience that he is not anything great, and then name drops and rattles off his copious amount of degrees. Then during the same seminar shows a hierarchy of how man can transcend, as if you are a level 0 then you are stupid but wait till you get to the top. Ag whatever. Does anyone actually really listen to what they are being told? All becoming mindless, bible-less do good-ers. And the more mindless one becomes the more apparently Christian you are.
16) Ok, I just realised how long this is…sorry. You all know I get carried away when I start. There is no point placing a statement of faith on a website or church door because again – it means nothing. Look at Rhema Church’s statement of faith. It looks great. Then you get to the bottom and there is one paragraph what makes what they said previously null and void. Just toss it out the window – cos that’s their statements of faith is worth. Speaking like a Christian does not make one a Christian.
17) Lastly, I am a woman, but men are the head. My husband is who looks after me. But you know how it turned out to be that women are the ones having to take a stand? Because of mankind’s sin, women wanted to be liberated, so they got it. They wanted high positions, so they got it. But there’s not enough space for the world to be at the top, so someone had to be removed. Well, there are only 2 genders, so men it must be, they need to go, get out of that ‘head of the home’ position.
The world creates its own problems through disobedience to God’s Word and sinning and then we complain when things don’t work out they way we thought it would. No, you kidding? It goes back to us being the ‘smart’ ones. The way the world now and for the last 6000 years is NOT the way it was supposed to be. But because of OUR SIN it has turn out to be this way and it’s getting worse and worse and it won’t stop. Now we have women taking a stand cos all the men are at a mighty men conference or Ama’horror’ being taught a load of hogwash to bring home to their families.
Nowhere in the bible does God say that a women needs to summit to false teaching. How doff do you think we are? That’s certainly not a husband’s love for his wife and family. That is certainly not what God intended, but mankind wanted to know good from evil – and now no one can distinguish good from evil. And then when we take a stand we are told to keep quiet. But at the same time you promote that we are were in the 21st century where ‘everything must change’. Hmmm…
18) Ok…I am finished. You may now attack me ferociously with words. Physical sticks and stones I do have a problem with.
If you have any questions, please just re-read what I wrote. Please.
EAoE. Errors and omissions excepted.
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Extra stuff that I did not write on the comment at Emerging Africa:
Roman Catholicism = the first ever successful religiously communistic regime. They ruled with Iron teeth for hundreds of years, in fact they have been around even when Jesus Christ the Son of God walked the earth. And they have already set themselves up to do it again. This time the entire world WILL be under their authoritarian rule. ALL this is prophecy being fulfilled as written in the Bible. Those who want to see the TRUTH will see it, those who don’t because they do not love the truth and the REAL Jesus Christ of scripture will follow blindly after this ungodly religion.
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To those who have cooked their gooses on this site, this article does not mean you can come back and comment. You can converse till your hearts content over at Emerging Africa where all beliefs are welcome and lead to one god. It is amply clear as to what we believe here, if you don’t get it after 121 articles I have posted on this site so far, then well… I have no idea what more to say to clear up your confusion.
You know it’s bad when you are following Emergent ideas, but don’t want to be called Emerging because being labeled Emerging is bad but insist that Emerging dialogue is good. Everything must change but stay the same. We need to move forward by going backward. We need to breakdown religious Christianity by moving to another religion that isn’t a religion but a combination of all faiths with one Christ who is not Jesus but ‘something’ else.
We all need to transcend and move vertically up the spiritual ladder in order to all become equal, because equality is what it’s all about – but if you don’t want to, that’s ok you just won’t be equal. The body of Christ is now as per the new Christian world view a community of believers instead who all believe in something ‘Jesus’ orientated but when you speak to them about Jesus Christ they get upset and tell you to keep quiet.
You want to be unbound by the Bible and at the same time quote scripture to prove your point that the Bible is rather useless. You insist something is not New Age or occult when you have no idea what New Age or occult means. Darkness is light, light is darkness. Good is evil, evil is good and telling something the truth is called hate.
The blind lead the blind, you walk into walls and you all stare at each other, too scared to say anything. You fear the reprisal of disagreeing with all these ‘oh you are so great’ people because you have seen what they do to others who don’t want to agree.
Instead of thinking with your brain you need to think using your emotions and senses instead – forgetting that it’s your brain that allows you to think in the first place. If someone seems like a nice person, your feelings are what now determines if someone is really a nice person or not. The less sense you make the more intelligent you become.
So the wall now becomes your deep inner struggle to break on through to the other side, instead of just turning around and saying to Jesus Christ you are wrong, and repent, tell him you are sorry. We all land in deception. Anyone who says they cannot be deceived already are deceived. At the end of the day it’s your choice. I made my decision a while back on who I would choose to serve and that would be Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour. I had to hit rock bottom first. I warn you because I don’t want you to land up where I did through sheer stupidity and disobedience to God because I thought I was smarter than Him. Well did I only come of second best. But now I am FIRST FOR HIM.
DTW, This is truly a Holy Spirit inspired article. I do not see how anyone who is seeking the TRUTH, cannot hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their minds and thoughts while reading this. And this, also applies to the people who are caught up in false doctrines.
Thank you Jemfishie. I hope there are some people out there who do listen. But unfortunately in this day and age, there won’t be many.
I like your Fishie picture hehe.
Michael Anthony
Well said. “Christians are just not doing the right thing. Let us tell you how”. And then they come up with these directives. What do you think of that video, Michael?
And here is plenty more.
You can see Ron Martoia redefine the Gospel right in front of your eyes and Mynhardt van Pletsen from Stephan Joubert’s echurch drinks it in like water.
People ultimately get the change the want. People ultimately get the leaders they deserve.
Change is code word for socialism.
Did you know that a very well know socialist tactic commonly used to attack conservatives is too take the very values/principles/statutes those conservatives live by accuse them of not keeping to the very rules they preach. This supposedly show the system to be imperfect and needing change. (sound familiar?)
This is not much different to satan’s accusations of the brethren – if they are sinless (well… righteous) ala Job the accusation then becomes one of motive (ie Job only remains righteous and faithful only because God blessed him).
The strategy has not changed; the emergent church accuses the established system of being corrupt and antiquated. The blind spot this creates is that they refuse to see that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9). The problem is not with God’s ordinances, it is with wicked men in a cloak of religion.
There is nothing wrong with the established ordinances of God, the message of salvation is unchanging. Heaven and earth will pass away by his word remains. We don’t need new ways of doing things, we need to be anchored to the ways of old for God is never changing.
In short – change in the context of established Christianity equals rebellion against God.
At least we know that the poverty of truth will be equally distributed.
>> change in the context of established Christianity equals rebellion against God.
Exactly.
And tooo true. There was nothing wrong with God’s ordinances because if it were it would make God look foolish (Which is what these cloaked wolves in sheeps clothing are in effect saying as well)
Ag, I just wanna pull my hat over my head and climb under the chair and hide. Oh wait, I wont have a chair to hide under once it’s been equally distributed.
A comment from Roger made a EmergingAfrica
Wed, 2009-10-21 01:05 — Roger Saner ATttttaaaaack!
Right, time to attack Deborah! Muahahaaa!!!
Ok, just kidding :p Thanks for commenting here, Deborah – sorry it took a while for your comment to be approved, but hey, it was 🙂 Thank you too for the tone in which your comment was written. For the first time that I can remember, you started off your comment with a positive statement (which helps me believe that you’re listening, and helps me want to listen what you have to say).
The way you present your argument here and the tone in which it comes across gives me hope that you’re not just some angry lunatic who hates everyone, but you’re someone who has something valid to say. Let me say that again: because of the way you’ve chosen to write in the past (ignoring the main point of the other person’s argument, mocking them, refusing to listen, and using vitriol) it’s led me to believe that you don’t have much to say (ya know, the clanging gong thing), but because of the way you write here, I find myself considering your words more carefully. If you’d like to make genuine inroads into the emerging church conversation (i.e. engaging with emergents on their own terms and helping them to see where they are misguided) you’ll have much more success this way than in standing outside of the conversation throwing in rocks.
You say that you genuinely understand the emerging church conversation – for the first time I’m starting to suspect that perhaps you do.
So I find myself genuinely surprised that I’m reading a comment by DTW and I can finally feel like I know where you’re coming from. As always, you’ve included your trademark sense of humour 🙂
I don’t have any specific responses to make to things which you’ve said here (for now) – just a “Thank-you”. I believe that respectful conversation is the best way to help others grow, and I appreciate the effort you’re making in this regard.
My reply:
Wed, 2009-10-21 09:06 — Discerning the World (Deborah)
2 cents is all I can afford right now due to man-made Recession
Roger Rabbit, I have always been nice to start with (find one comment (except for Nic and Steve)) where I started the conversation negatively). This all started with the Ama’horror’ article and you all took major offense to what I said; but not once said what you took offence too, you just basically continued to insinuate that I as unintelligent and lacked education and have no clue. Iggy asked god to blind me (god in lowercase) and some other guy cursed me that cancer spreads through my veins. Lovely. Remind me to stay far away from them.
Then there was that someone who lied so much that I was almost on the verge of flying to his home town and slapping him over the head for being downright silly and commenting with my name using his other duke divinity school email address (lest I mention the EXACT same IP address using his name and then my name) oh boy. But I kept quiet…and watched him. Lucky for him, Duke Divinity school Deans and Administrators etc (yes all of them – I spoke too via email apologised on their students behalf. I was nice enough to not mention his name because I cared enough to not want him kicked out for bringing the school into disrepute.
You keep throwing this ‘negativity’ thing back at me when some of you said things and did things that were worse. (dtw3 for instance). Not once have you apologised or shown any kind of sorry for siding with ‘nasty’ people. But hey, that is not what this is about. I don’t care if they say sorry or not. Millions of people right now are saying sorry and forgiving one another and still in their hearts don’t ‘reallyyyyy’ mean it – all the other person has to go on is the other’s puff red eyes and a great performance.
It’s about me speaking the truth and people taking offense to WHAT I said, NOT how I said it. There were some however that chose to take what I said and not be nice back because they were defending their ‘friends’ without reading everything from the beginning. I can clearly see when someone is progressing in their comments towards just plain arguing to disagree – the problem with this is I am not going to agree either, but it’s my blog and I never asked them to come and argue with me.
And disagreeing with someone in a harsh tone is not being nasty especially when it’s clear from the start as to what the person believes and nothing I say in any tone is going to make them see. Only God can do this, and like I said above, EVERYONE knows if God is speaking to them but they just out right have rejected what He said because they chose the wide path that contains many paths leading to something that they think is god. As long as it makes them feel positive then it must be ok. Well… allll righty then, if you insist.
Anyhow, that’s my last 2 cents on this issue. Having said that I will continue to ‘sound’ mean and nasty to most because that is what they want to think. And this problem is not going to go away. In fact it’s only going to get worse for me and others out there who love Jesus Christ (the real) one as the world progresses further into lies and deception and the attacks get worse against the Gospel. (Notice I said the attacks against the Gospel – we little people who stand up for Jesus Christ will get branded and broken down because we won’t change out thinking)
Righty I have things to do, places to see, and lands to conquer.
Note, your goose is still cooked 🙂
Hi Michael Anthony,
Just out of interest (given your comment on socialism) what is your view on democracy / capitalism (the other side of the scale)? I tend to see there are some tremendous evils in capitalism as well.
Amanda,
I watched about 8 minutes of this pseudo spiritual babble.
To me ‘Rethink’ equals ‘Did God really say?’ Where there was certainty now there is doubt.
Genesis 3 (King James Version)
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
He said something very startling on that video clip – ‘if you want to be holy you have to transcend this world…’ then he talks about ‘Portals to the divine’
Sounds like ascending to a ‘higher’ spirituality…
isaiah 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: (talking of Lucifer)
This is not biblical sanctification.
He keeps using the word ‘awareness’ and referring to ‘knowledge’. It is has if you have to find this new way of acquiring it (The bible says distinctly that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the reformers fought for the sufficiency of scripture, you acquire knowledge by studying the bible).
Genesis 3 (King James Version)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Same lies, repacked into modern garb by a bespectacled wolf. It is a hybrid of works salvation, mysticism, new age garb, Hagel’s philosophies. These guys honestly believe their ‘eyes are being opened’ when in fact they are being blinded to the truth.
(video quote) ‘We are meant to be deeply connected with the earth and our maker’. I mean, as if it’s not bad enough now we have pantheism to further confuse the clarity of the Gospel. We have no connection to God if we abide in sin, full stop. The forgiveness of sin is found only in the sufficiency of the price paid on Calvary. We don’t do nice social things to become more ‘connected’ with God.
The video is a Crossless, Christless, meaningless rambling.
To be honest you need an emergent dictionary to even begin to interpret what any of this means. These guys come up with terms and sentences that make absolutely no sense.
In summary – there is nothing new under the sun.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Michael Anthony
Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and highlighting the problems. I know it is a little hard to watch, but I did not want to discourage you ahead of time. Sorry about that.
Mmmm. It is worse than I thought. This “pseudo spiritual babble” is what Dr. Stephan Joubert is bringing into the DRC. When Mr. Sarel van der Merwe pointed it out, he was attacked by Prof. Nelus Niemandt, assessor of the Dutch Reformed Church General Synod, who labeled his “wild statements” as “lies, loveless and libel”. Seems to me that post-modern thinking is an oxymoron.
My response to Graeme McKibbin
Subject: Ok, I am down to 0.5 cents
Re-read what I said.
Btw, I would take that article you have on your site off where you mention that if certain animals are homosexual then that means it’s ok for humans to be as well. If you want to keep the article up, great, but then I think tons of people would like an article on: “If certain animals eat other animals flesh for food then humans can eat eachother too.”
Ok, I am down to 0.5 cents, I really need this money for something more important.
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I realised I made an error and commented again:
Subject: Finally Penniless
Sorrrrryyyyy Graeme McKibbin I thought you were Graeme Codrington from futurechurch. But again, please re-read my comment, and when finished, again 🙂
As for Rogers friend Graeme Codrington who wrote the article: Homosexuality is natural: I would still write that article as it would be a really good read.
Ok now I have no more money.
My emergent EX-Pastor recently returned from S.A where he met with others of the “Apostolic leadership network”
Namely:Duane White, Jack Grobleski, Dave Smith and Francois van Niekerk. Never heard of em?
Last year he hosted visiting speaker Margaret Stunt.
She is over your way now, joining Rhema from Londons Hillsong Church.
I can honestly say that no other “Christian” Minister has made me want to duck down and hide under the seat.
Even praying to God with the “Cornuto” hand sign.
Intentional or not it kinda displays the source of power.
God bless
Pete
Oh my golly golly gosh…
Those are dem people from Hatfield Christian Church in Pretoria (Duane White, Francois van Niekerk and Dave Smith), Jack Groblewski is from Grace Network in the USA who appeared at Hatfield Church on a conference)
Oh sigh… And when I told everyone last year that Wof, NAR and Emergent were the same thing they said, ‘nooooo, never’. So everyone jumped on the Emergent’s because of their downright blatant occult teaching and stopped looking at the WoF and NAR because the Emergent’s were a greater threat at the time. Thing is they are all the same; just preach the message differently to confuse everyone.
So they are all merging together slowly but surely. One leans more towards poverty, the other one leans towards prosperity. Both preach false teaching and both will make you bankrupt spiritually and financially.
A comment made by Graeme McKibbin in Emerging Africa regarding my comment/post above:
Wed, 2009-10-21 17:12 — Graeme McKibbin
A few things
>> 2) The bible MUST be read literally, historically and in context
Although this sounds like a great idea, on what basis can you make such a claim? (Incidentally, I’m not disagreeing with you here, but I’d like to know what grounds we have for establishing this as the departure point of our hermeneutics).
>> 4) The root of the emerging church is Roman Catholic
Really? In what way(s)? Is it connected to the Vatican at all?
>> 7) Culture and Religion are two different things
True, but it gets a bit trickier in an African context where culture and religion is so intricately intertwined!
>> 13) Test everything, even this thing called ‘love’ that mankind so easily showers on everyone nowadays ..
I agree with this – the definition of love is crucial, as love can be used to justify various kinds of acts. Some think the most loving thing they can do is let people make their own choices about everything (even if that means they fall off the cliff), whereas others think it most loving to correct them “for their own good”, which can end up being seen as judgmental. Jesus said the greatest act of love is to lay down one’s life for another. He also said to love God (first), and then our neighbour, as ourselves.
>> 15) The ‘new’ church feels that they are solely responsible for changing a person’s heart by keeping them
within their community in the hope that one day they will change. Have you never come across people who will do and say anything just to get a bowl of ‘free’ food?
Did Jesus not talk about the goats and sheep growing together until the harvest?
>> 16) Look at Rhema Church’s statement of faith. It looks great. Then you get to the bottom…
Out of interest, what is in that last paragraph that invalidates Rhema’s statement of faith? (I’ve never read it).
>> 1) Judging is not about a person’s life – we judge what they say that contradicts scripture. I will never judge someone based on what they do in their life or the sin in their life
>> 6) Believing in Jesus Christ and not changing your sinful ways means absolutely nothing.
Do you not see a slight contradiction in this?
Ryan
Why are you asking such a question knowing fully well that we live in a sinful world and that anything man made will never be good?
What would you like to see instead of the evils of capitalism and the evils of socialism? What’s inbetween that? A “Kingdgom of God” set up by men run by a Christ?
Ryan Peter,
Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?
It would not take much to see that liberal Christianity (as in the mould that began to appear in the early 20th century) and version 2.0 with some of the same features (as Chris Roseborough puts it) which is found in the modern day liberal church & emergent church leans very heavily towards the left. That is where you find words like communitarianism etc in their language – all borrowed from the left and reworded.
Maybe you should study things or topics such as Saul Alinsky, Alice Bailey, Karl Marx, the Clowen-Piven strategy, Hegel’s philosophies and find out what is really feeding some of liberal Christianity’s ideas. You will be shocked. When ‘Sustainable Development’ is as much a doctrine in the emergent church as it is in the globalist benches you should take note.
Then have a further look at Fabian Socialism. Then have a look at the similarities between the postmodernists and the emergent church, you cannot tell them apart. What is really shocking is how much humanism is entangled here as well. And feminism, and cultural Marxism. Etc. I could go on…
In further summary there have been two tracks to globalism for many years-political and spiritual. Now the two tracks are becoming one as politicians use religion to promote globalism and religious leaders become partners with politicians and promote the United Nations (or a globalist unity under one banner).
You connecting the dots yet?
From Brannon House —
The three worldviews that are merging into a dominant new worldview embraced on a global scale include evolutionary humanism, Hindu pantheism, and occultism has merged to create a worldview I call One-World Spirituality. The theology of this worldview is pantheism; the philosophy is pagan spirituality; the biology is Darwinian evolution; the economic system is socialism, the politics is globalism, and the activism of this worldview is centered on radical environmentalism and political correctness (cultural Marxism). The goals of this One-World Spirituality are just what we’ve outlined before: a one-world government, one-world religion, and one-world economic system.
The social implications of pagan spirituality are stunning. If we are all one, no individual or nation should be better or worse off than anyone else, and thus the only acceptable economic worldview is socialism, the attempt to equalize the distribution of wealth.
….
My problem is against socialism, nowhere did I defend Capitalism or even mention it, nor did I use the word democracy. I believe in a country’s sovereignty and its ability to rule it as an autonomy whether it be a republic or otherwise.
You mentioned ‘tremendous evils’ in Capitalism. Now that word ‘tremendous’ followed by evils means that it is XXX-Large evil. Explain please. And don’t waste my time with nonsense – stay anchored to the topic as well as these XXX claims of yours with diverting. Can you do that?
Hey DTW,
I agree with you. I was just curious to hear Michael Anthony’s response at the time.
There are a lot of Christians that are against socialism because they are actually just pro-capitalist. There are many people that call themselves ‘conservative’ and are heavily pro-capitalist.
Michael Anthony talking about ‘conservatives’ made me curious as to his answer to the question.
Personally I’m neither heavily pro this or pro that when it comes to politics. I do think that people should have ‘rights’, though, which makes me lean towards democracy – but even that can go pretty extreme and is going rather extreme within democracy at the moment (we are in a fallen world, after all).
GK Chesterton was into distributism which I discovered recently and found interesting, but every ‘system’ has deep flaws which – as you say – are subject to the reality of our fallen world.
I am all for leaders being responsible and accountable, though, and since we are the ‘salt of the world’ we ought to at least make things uncomfortable for leaders who want to jump on board any type of gravy train (we ought to say something).
If anything I think I’d prefer a monarchy – with a good and perfect King. So I’m waiting for Jesus to come back 🙂
Hi Michael
“Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?”
No.
Capitalism can lead to unfair distribution of wealth, excessive materialism (a love of money), monopolies, unfair trade, exploitation, major class gaps, a glorifying of the individual, a lack of responsibility to the community / others, humanism, and such things.
There are also different forms of capitalism, of course.
These are the results because of man’s wickedness.
Likewise, on paper socialism looks great (an ideal) but falls short because of man’s wickedness. And many of its failings are very similar to what we see in capitalism anyway – and in many other systems – because the problem is obviously with man.
George Orwell’s Animal Farm comes to mind.
Would something OT like a Jubilee work in capitalism? Just something to think about. I mention it because it shows something of God’s heart (mercy for people in debt) that capitalism doesn’t make much space for.
I doubt that God’s plan is capitalism when the new heavens and new earth are here. Whether capitalism is the lesser of two evils is hard to say, since a lot depends on how it (or socialism) is controlled.
But to defend capitalism as if it’s God’s own manifesto for government is really all I’m digging at. Many ‘conservatives’ tend to treat it that way – in fact, Brannon Howse is one such individual who seems, from the outset, to treat it that way.
Hi Michael,
Let me add another one for capitalism’s evils – the prosperity gospel.
Ryan Peter,
Just in case you are interested I consider myself a Fundamentalist in the original definition. Therefore I would fall under the conservative bracket.
(Fundamentalism was created to reaffirm orthodox Protestant Christianity and to defend it against the challenges of liberal theology, http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/fundamen.htm)
That means I am pro free market, which I believe is the biblical guideline.
Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.
(quote) There are a lot of Christians that are against socialism because they are actually just pro-capitalist.(end of quote)
Could you clarify this statement? I personally have studied socialism in depth, are you implying that there are Christians that don’t actually understand worldviews when it comes to this sort of thing? Well, if so then you have indicted yourself because you stated you are neither pro this or that. Neutrality is not a worldview; the bible is filled with absolutes. You may not agree with any political candidate but you have to define what is truth and biblical guideline for ie civil governance or Christian worldviews. (It’s in the bible, really!)
Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.
Give me one instance of a democracy/capitalist country that has attacked without provocation any other country in the last 200 years. (Let me give you a hint – there aren’t any…) I can tell you of countless instances of Fascist, Totalitarian and Socialist countries that have.
Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.
And again in case you missed it –
Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.
Ryan
Prosperity Gospel is not a result of capitalism or part of capitalism for that matter. False teaching is a result of a sinful world and a result of wicked men who hate the Word of God. Greed as a whole is because of men’s sinful nature.
One can’t sit and debate the negatives and positives of capitalism without coming up with a solution to the problem – in the new world orders case; one currency, with one inflation rate run by one government where everyone will be equal – except those those at the top of the hierarchy.
There is only one evil and that is sin. The Bible does not ask us to contemplate the meanings of life and why the world is so wretched because the answer is simple: if man followed God’s Word from day one we would not be in this situation.
Hi Michael,
Still waiting for you to clarify the ‘Tremendous evils of Capitalism’.
I said there were ‘tremendous evils in capitalism’, this means the system – like all systems – is a mix of good and bad.
My answer (above) said, to paraphrase, that I can’t produce an answer to the evils in capitalism taking man’s wickedness out of the equation because the problems are in fact, at the bottom line, man’s wickedness.
I produced a list of problems that capitalism can cause because of man’s wickedness. I didn’t list the problems of capitalism outside this framework, and that is why I haven’t answered your question, nor can I because we don’t live in an ideal world.
I answered your first question of “Could you outline the ‘evils’ you see in capitalism – directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?” with No.
That was a nice way of saying “I am not entering that debate with you” as I can’t meet your prerequisites and therefore we have nothing to debate.
Secondly, my argument from the outset was not going to be about how bad capitalism is – my main beef is that it is treated as some sort of holy cow by conservatives.
Could you clarify this statement? I personally have studied socialism in depth, are you implying that there are Christians that don’t actually understand worldviews when it comes to this sort of thing? Well, if so then you have indicted yourself because you stated you are neither pro this or that. Neutrality is not a worldview; the bible is filled with absolutes. You may not agree with any political candidate but you have to define what is truth and biblical guideline for ie civil governance or Christian worldviews. (It’s in the bible, really!)
Most Christians don’t know much about economical systems and the subtleties in politics. Do you think they should? Not everyone is highly educated nor has the opportunity to be educated in these matters. Is that wrong?
Personally, I know very little about how economics ultimately work, I am simply speaking as a layman.
Give me one instance of a democracy/capitalist country that has attacked without provocation any other country in the last 200 years.
I can tell you of countless instances of Fascist, Totalitarian and Socialist countries that have.
I’m not raising a banner for socialism here so I don’t know why you’re bringing this up.
Incidentally, this falls short of your own original question to me explaining the evils in capitalism “directly imputed because of the system itself and not because of man’s wickedness?” Socialist, fascist etc. countries going to war to dominate others is a result of the fallen human nature – unless you are saying that these systems of government cause people to sin and capitalism doesn’t? We could then discuss Romans 3 if you would like 😉
Furthermore, are you really implying that capitalist countries are squeaky clean? There is more than just one way to dominate another country.
This latest recession is the result of greedy capitalism, after all. Capitalism may work if we live in a perfect world, but we don’t.
Do you think that capitalism is God’s own manifesto for economics? Now I would be interested in hearing that answer.
Hey DTW
“Prosperity Gospel is not a result of capitalism or part of capitalism for that matter.
Yes, I know it’s a bit of a stretch but at the same time I am hi-lighting the fact that the prosperity gospel hasn’t come from anywhere else except capitalist countries, and most notably America, which is probably as capitalistic as it gets.
Capitalism can provide a very good breeding ground for that sort of theology to take root, precisely because Mammon can take root fairly easily and openly in a capitalistic system.
At any rate, I am not arguing that socialism or anything else is better. Mammon is there as well. I’m simply hi-lighting the fact that capitalism isn’t so amazing and perfect.
“There is only one evil and that is sin. The Bible does not ask us to contemplate the meanings of life and why the world is so wretched because the answer is simple: if man followed God’s Word from day one we would not be in this situation.”
Exactly, I agree 100%.
Ryan
Cool, now look at capitalism vs another type of system from a non-Christian point of view. We all know that there are good things and bad things in both. Even democracy is a just a cover up to give sin ‘rights’.
So look at this whole picture from a much deeper perspective. The World trying to change the world into something wonderful (full of love) who do not believe in the Bible, and False Christian churches trying to change the world in the same direction as the rest of the world, except these people use the Bible to back up their teachings.
So how can the world (who is sinful) and the church (supposed to be Christian) all be moving in the same direction with the same goal? Both want a world of peace, the Bible says that this will never happen because the world is full of sin and they wont change their ways.
Ryan Peter,
I disagree with your observations.
In Communism the ‘redistribution of wealth’ is state sponsored theft – in direct opposition to God’s statutes. In Communism intelligence (and history etc) is state controlled. In Communism the state owns all the property – not individuals. This is in direct rebellion to God’s statutes about property and land rights and demarcations. Free speech. Control of the Press. Control of Telecoms…I can go on and on. Socialism is in direct rebellion to biblical principles.
When socialist countries go to war it is mostly due to resources, not necessarily for empirical ambitions. The lack of resources is created by the system itself which leads it into poverty, so they have little choice but to do what Russia did in the cold war. (If they don’t invade the nation then sell/educate them to a poisonous, rebellious philosophy in exchange for weapons in return for resources) IT IS NOT NECESSARILY MAN’S INDIVIDUAL EVIL – IT IS THE SYTEM THAT IS EVIL! No matter how benevolent you are the system will soon change that.
(Quote) Most Christians don’t know much about economical systems and the subtleties in politics. Do you think they should? Not everyone is highly educated nor has the opportunity to be educated in these matters. Is that wrong?(End of Quote)
A resounding YES! It is absolutely wrong. The reasons why Christians are so ignorant and deluded is their mostly own fault – Christianity has been persistently dumbed down for the last 30 years (from the pulpit and the learning institutions). People have more time for the X-Box or television than studying what is around them. A outline of Christian worldviews will take 2 hours to cover in modern English (including economics) which would suffice for now.
THERS IS NOTHING EVIL IN CAPITALISM AS A SYSTEM. People flourish under the system, it is the INDIVIDUAL EVIL that corrupts things. This is a very different premise.
DTW,
First time I don’t fully agree with you. If we changed Capitalism to ‘Free- Market’ in terms of purely economics there is zero evil in the system. That is because it is the biblical principle of economics – HOWEVER, the bible also only allows Gold and Silver as trading currency. The banks have been stealing from us for a long time plus the US got off the gold standard in the 1970’s – that is why we are in a financial mess. If we all had stuck to the Gold standard and not printed money at will the crisis would have been contained.
If we glue Capitalism into democracy that’s another story, there are some flaws in a pure democracy but it’s the best we got until Christ.
BTW, the economic system of the antichrist will likely be fascism – a synthesis of capitalism and socialism. Most bible scholars agree on this one. (This is why Obama is pushing socialist policies – trying to nationalist industries and healthcare etc.)
Ryan Peter
Last word which I forgot to add.
(Quote) I’m not raising a banner for socialism here so I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. (End of Quote)
Simply to show you that Karl Marx (the dude that wrote the communist manifesto) was inspired by the devil, read his poetry – he openly declares war on God and vows to destroy everything he created. Socialism – the root – is evil therefore the whole tree can only bear evil fruit. (That’s a statement Jesus made.) There is no Capitalist manifesto or anything of the sort.
Read the parable of the talents (talents is/was an actual currency – that changes things from some modern interpretations…). God expects a return of what he bestowed on his servants, it’s called interest (even if you spiritualize it – I believe both views are valid and meant to be interpreted that way). Fairness and just balances- especially in trading – are very biblical principles.
There is not necessarily evil in both systems, I don’t agree with that premise.
OK, How many Ryan Peters are there???
I only noticed this post after submitting my last posts. I apologize in advance if my answers seems a ‘little’ flippant.
Really? Is excessive materialism a problem of man’s greed or the Capitalist system’s? (We have whipped this horse to death) Unfair distribution of wealth? You are even thinking? This is starting to sound like Lucifer. It’s called – you get what you work for. I think it is people that are envious of success. The problem seems to be with envy, not the system.
Unfair trade? What, is that just a filler? (What are talking here – child labour? What exactly?)
Exploitation? Of what? Is that due to the system? Exploitation has zero to due with a free market, it has everything to so with exploitation (intentional) Humanism? Huh? And this is caused by Capitalism? Ok…
Please tell us how many there are because I am confused with which one you mean.
No! Really?
No, Socialism does not even look great on paper. Not even on great paper. Anybody with half a brain can see that it will not work – if it looked great on paper every country would have tried it. Only a few did.
IT IS UP YO YOU TO FORGIVE YOUR NEIGHBOURS DEBT IF THEY CANNOT REPAY, NOT THE SYSTEM. (Jesus was quite clear on this) What, you want the banks to write off your debts? Who writes off theirs?
No one said it would be.
Yeah, and so do I.
OK, mister anti-capitalist. You have knocked the free market system. What then is the biblical system? What then is the perfect system? I mean, you are the expert in what’s wrong with it, after all. What is the perfect model?
Again, apologies for the sarcasm but I don’t know how else to answer some of these…
Michael
I think I didn’t explain myself properly which is highly possible as I was non compesmentus yesterday. Gotta throw in my big word for the day lol.
I agree re: free-market, gold and silver, printing paper money, false credit (imaginary money), new economic system will likely be fascism (I agree) – the same thing is happening her in SA (new government medical scheme)
As for democracy – I was not including capitalism into democracy or vice versa. I was just showing democracy as being another disguised evil in our world that was inevitable and like you say the best we got – the best way to deal with human rights – yet it has it’s deep dark side as it will in future deny Christians preaching the gospel as it invades peoples right. That’s what I meant.
Ryan:
Unfair?
Distribution?
The unfair distribution of wealth?
What would the fair distribution of wealth look like?
Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
Oh, evil America. People are fleeing the Land of the Free and jumping the Great Wall just to get into communist China to share in the fair distribution of wealth.
Don’t fret about evil America. The emergent church in Africa is going to get them. They are demanding that America redistribute wealth for the evil of colonialism, I mean, slavery [see Amahorror] and for the evil of warming the planet. [see here] Or is it cooling the planet? No matter. They are gonna pay, uh, redistribute their wealth to us. It is only fair.
Hi Michael,
There’s only one of me 🙂 My email address keeps changing depending on what PC I am using at the time, but I think I’ve found the right email address to use for my Gravatar so there won’t be any confusion anymore.
Because of the confusion your posts feel as if you’re running circles around me at the moment. I’ll have to consolidate them and try and answer one question at a time.
I’ll do this later today.
In the meantime please remember where I am coming from – I already said in previous posts that I speak as a layman. I am making observations based on what I actually see in the world today, like most ordinary people.
You seem quite passionate about this subject. I’m grateful for that. I’ll answer your questions later.