How far is too far in the Emerging Church
How far is too far in the Emerging Church
How far is too far? The Emerging Church seeks to change everything but on what grounds?
Because the Bible is out of date?
Because we are in a time where people supposedly think differently than before hence we need new rules?
Because it’s too difficult to understand?
Because there are things that God commands you not do and you don’t like that because that means changing your worldly ways or?
It is because you/they really don’t like Jesus Christ the Son of God and therefore secretly have to change the Bible hoping no one will notice?
Is it because this is one big science experiment to see how far they can push the boundaries of God’s Word to see if man is capable of coming up with their own rules hence replacing God.
But let’s say that Brian McLaren got his way and everything changed. Everything has now changed, what is left, what exactly are we left with?
By what standards are we left to know what is right from wrong, good from evil. There are no more Godly Christians standards, we only have man made standards…
So:
What is the new definition of a GOOD person?
and while we are at it…
What is the new definition of a BAD person?
and where does all of this leave Sin and repentance of sin?
Some verses regarding God’s Word taken from God’s Word:
Trying to change God’s Word:
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Sin is Good, Darkness the NEW light:
Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Job 17:12
12 “They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.
Luke 11:35
35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
Correction to the above : where I said “Even in my conversations with people who might even believe, I have never agreed with them”
I meant
“Even in my conversations with people who might even believe this (meaning one world religion), I have never agreed with them”
@ Amanda
“Disunity? I don’t think so. The body of Christ, with Him as the head and not the church, is working just fine.
Try as you might, you will never be able to unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. It cannot be done.
So, what are you going to do?”
Simple – I’m not going to try and unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. 🙂 I, myself, have no interest in doing that.
Ryan
Ok, if we believe the same thing, then why are we arguing? What is it exactly that I am saying that differs to what you are saying? I know what it is, but I want you to say it – come out and say it, stop beating around the bush here.
hint: repentance of sin – let’s talk about this as this is the key issue here. You speak about repentance, but there is a slight difference to what I say and how you think it is. It’s this slight difference that makes for two ENTIRELY different messages.
And why are you reading Brian McLaren and his blatant anti-Christian rubbish – he believes that all faiths lead to the same god and celebrated Ramadan? How can you in any way or form agree with someone who can do this? I ask with tears in my eyes!!!
I don’t get your point regarding bible translations. I know the NIV is a watered down version. I wonder what version Brian reads. Is this the cause of him getting the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ completely wrong or is it because he is a wicked man with wicked intentions of dismantling the Gospel of Jesus Christ and changing everything by removing REPENTANCE OF SIN out the the equation.
Regarding your comment of the truine God living in community: “Even the Living God Himself, the triune God, lives in community (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). We abide in him, he abides in us, and through local church we equip and teach others how to abide in Him.”
Good grief Ryan do you understand what you have just said? You have included man into the godhood. You have included his creation into Himself. Being part of the body of Christ does NOT mean you are actually part of the body Christ or part of God in any way what-so-ever. This is new age speak. Why can’t you see this? You just refuse to take cogniscence of what you are really saying. You come here and speak like a Christian and then on Emergeingafrica with Nic Paton (who believes that Jesus and Satan are one and the same) you speak the reverse.
This is the fine line between being a born again Christian and a new age Christian.
1) A born again Christian is saved through genuine repentance of sin, knowing that we are sinners and believe by faith that Jesus Christ died for our sin and His blood washes us spotless to present us before a Holy Holy God (who can NOT tolerate sin at all). When one becomes genuinely saved the Holy Spirit comes to abide you. The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ, He is God’s voice to guide you. The Bible is God’s Word. The Word of God is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is the One who interprets scripture. As you grow in Jesus Christ (THROUGH REPENTANCE OF SIN) your relationship grows with God through Jesus Christ and the more the Holy Spirit speak to you. It’s a relationship. A born again Christian becomes Christ-like through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and with this comes the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit abide in you does NOT mean you can become like Jesus did or do what He did. We are sinners and forgiven – that’s it. Any all this by the GRACE of God.
2) The new age Christian believes that the entire world is saved because God sent his only Son to save the world for those who believe. So just believe and you will be saved. But genuine repentance plays no part in this so called salvation. They speak like a Christian (to a point) and speak the name of Jesus but there are certain things that are the FUNDAMENTALS of Christianity that are missing – this then changes the entire doctrine. They speak about being Christ-like to the point of actually becomeing just like Jesus Christ did when He walked this earth. The new age Christian teaching of following in Christ’s footsteps or following Jesus and becoming like Him is based on the idea that when we find the God in us we actually become a Christ of sorts – as they grow in their goodness and their loving the world the more they learn Christ like values and transcend to become a little god. And new age grace is not the same as orthodox biblical grace. Again there are two different meanings.
Regarding the rest of your comment, please go back and re-read what I said, expecially the last part about sitting around the table with sinners and preaching to them vs sitting around the table with sinners who REFUSE to repent.
Ryan
What do you think is a ‘one world religion’? Do you think it’s Christianity or religions beliving in Christ without having to leave their religion? Like Brian McLaren celebrating Ramadan, sitting around the table with muslims who believe in Christ but remain muslim?
Oh sigh…I wish you could see the giagantic difference between new age Christianity and biblical Christianity.
When the bible speaks about loving your neighbour it does not mean you go and accept their beliefs in the hope that they one day if ever they convert to what you believe. I will NOT go and celebrate a feast dedicated to another god in the hopes that they will see my point of view because I want to get along with their point of view..
DTW,
Can you define what you mean by “…muslims who believe in Christ but remain muslim”? Do you mean they still believe that Muhammad is God’s last prophet and that the Koran is God’s inspired word? Or do you mean simply that they continue to practice Muslim traditions whilst believing in Christ as Saviour & Lord?
I don’t see how the latter can be a problem even to fundamentalist Christianity! In fact, I know some conservative missionaries who are saying that it’s important not to try and convert Muslims to a westernized Christianity with its Western “dress”, but rather that they allow their faith to be expressed, relative to their own culture.
DTW
“Ok, if we believe the same thing, then why are we arguing? What is it exactly that I am saying that differs to what you are saying? I know what it is, but I want you to say it – come out and say it, stop beating around the bush here.”
Ok, no beating around the bush 🙂 But please remember that I don’t want to be thrown off this blog because I’m honest. I’m trying my best to fall within your rules and of course be civil.
My main concern is that I don’t think you, Amanda or Cecilia are linked in with any local church at all. Why I’m concerned about this is because:
You have no accountability. You can say what you like and do what you like, and justify it as much as you want because you are not in accountable relationships of any sort. (This is an honest reflection, I’m not judging, simply laying my case.)
See how the relationships are worked out in the Scriptures. When Peter made a mistake, Paul rebuked him, and Peter later on commends Paul for his writings. Peter could have claimed “well, who are you to talk Paul? I have a relationship with God and am only accountable to him, not you.”
Yet that doesn’t happen. Peter accepts the rebuke on the nose – and Paul wasn’t even one of the original disciples!
God gave us pastors, teachers etc. to help us in our walk – relationships, friendship, fellowship, all these wonderful things so that we could be properly equipped and held accountable.
But who is holding you accountable for your actions? Your speech? Your conduct? In the Scriptures Paul was holding the churches accountable through his relationship with them – and asking them to encourage and build each other up. Who is pastoring you? Who is equipping you for the work of the ministry as mentioned in Eph 4:11? Who is encouraging you? Who is helping you with difficult scriptures? Who is helping to take the plank out of your eye, in genuine love and respect?
I hope not the Internet. And I don’t think getting together for coffee on Saturdays is following the scriptures either.
That’s my real dilemma. If you want to talk about repentance of sin, I don’t mind, we can gladly talk about it and see if we actually differ. I’ll respond to that part of your post later today (got a ton of work to finish now) but this above is really my main concern and argument, set out in a candid way.
is God logical? can we understand Him or His marvellous doings in this world by reason of ‘logic’? just a question. cecilia
could these 2 learned gentlemen please supply scripture proof about the “universal church”? or does that flows from “logic”? cecilia
Ryan
The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care.
Nope, the reason for false prophets being allowed to have free reign in the modern church is because biblical illiteracy. The problem with the modern church is not that it is not necessarily not preaching the gospel – it is a diluted version or just a dumbing down of Christianity.
I understand you are trying to make a point but you seem to be caught in a spin cycle of your own circular reasoning. Try an exegesis of scripture instead of using them to support what’s on your mind.
Of course we should all fellowship in a local church or with fellow believers. Do we really need a thesis on this? We just need to prove all things, test all things – if a church leaves the biblical program, we leave that church.
Apologies, it did not come out clear —
The first paragraph in the above post is a quote (Ryan)
“The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care.”
Ryan, when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?
Ryan Peter
October 12th, 2009 at 11:50 pm – you only mentioned Hebr. 10:25 – I reacted on that! my sermons is a lot longer than yours, so I usually don’t reply with a sermon, people switch off after a few minutes.
I think what I actually want to say is that we’re trying not to run tooo far off the topic on hand …. cecilia
No accountabliltiy? Not linked? Ok, don’t be concerned *choking on a carrot* – let me just take a few moments to catch my breath here).
You can’t be serious? So who are you accontable to exactly? And no I don’t want their name or church name either. Are you saying you are accountable to a PERSON? And who are hey accountable too if that is the case? And who is that person accountable too? And when does this stop? Once the most accountable at the top gets to speak to God directly for instruction and then relay that message back to you?
So where does the Bible then fall into this picture? A 2nd hand book after the human ‘fact’ is presented via powerpoint? And that then does away with the for the Holy Spirit who IS our COUNCELLOR.
I am so glad I am not accountable to whoever you are accountable too. I mean who knows what they could be teaching you.
Pooh Bear
Well…ok….then… thanks for that valuable information on what a New Age Christian believes.
I said to Ryan, “When the bible speaks about loving your neighbour it does not mean you go and accept their beliefs in the hope that they one day if ever they convert to what you believe. I will NOT go and celebrate a feast dedicated to another god in the hopes that they will see my point of view because I want to get along with their point of view..”
Culture vs Religion
Lastly I have noticed that New Age thinkers have this complete lack in ability to distinguish between religion and culture. Somene else did this too. Islam is not a culture. Islam is a religion. Hindiusm is a religion, it is not a culture. A Hindu who becomes saved does not have to conform to western culture and stop eating curry (curry= culture). If they were to continue putting the dot on the forehead I would say no ways (this is not because of anything westernised, this is because the dot representes the third eye or 6th Chakra). If a muslim became saved they would not be a muslim anymore. Depending on where they lived they would keep certain customs (that had nothing to do with anything religious at all). You get muslims in australia, are you telling me they now all take on the muslim culture of one that lives in the desert? No.
So again please explain to me how attending a RELIGIOUS custom in honour of Allah (the god of the moon and stars) is in any way Christian? I refer you back to the 10 commandments
Ryan
Just a question, let’s say all this ‘accountability’ nonsense that you are speaking about (trying to divert attention from the ‘repentance of sin’ question) – (and Brian McLaren issue), let’s just say for example that I am accountable to a someone older and more wiser than I. I tested him to make sure that he does not preach another gospel by using scripture.
Now…how do you know if the one you are accountable too is not misleading you? Do you test and weigh and go and find out for yourself if he is telling you the truth? What would you do if you found out he was wrong?
Would you email Brian McLaren and ask him if he is telling you the truth in his books? If he said ‘of course’ would you believe him or would you TEST him. It is clear you are not doing any testing because you still think Brian McLaren is cool even after all the horrendus anti-Christian stuff he has said.
Please answer this question. There are 2 answers. The new age Christian answer and a biblical answer.
Tell me, there is an island of 100 people. And 1 person sees a bottle floating on the water and he opens it and it speaks about the savlation, repentance of sin through the cross and Jesus Christ. He gets GENUINELY saved. He passes the message onto the rest and none of them care. He changes his ways and starts living a Godly life. There is no church to go too, no one to fellowship with. In fact he is now hated because the other islanders can see he is now different from them. They taunt him, they taunt him and hate him so much that he is forced to leave the island in any way he can. But poor guy does not make it to far from the island, he dies, but he IS saved….or is he Ryan?
So please tell us all who this lonesome little guy was accountable too?
Ryan Peter
So Ryan, let’s set up a little church for a moment. [DTW and Cecilia, please close your eyes. This ain’t going to be pretty.] We have you as the pastor and Nic, Roger, DTW, Cecilia and myself and some others as your little flock. Nic waxes eloquent about the holy trickster and Roger says:
C, D and me shout ‘foul’, rebuke them and warn everybody else. You jump into action and enforce accountability. Who gets it in the neck, the heretics, or those that are ‘divisive’, ‘unloving’ and troublemakers by pointing out the heresy? [Okay, you can look now.]
Amanda
No shucks, that is horrible. I can see why you made us close our eyes. haha
Actually this whole accountability thing sounds remotely catholic don’t ya think? In a world community (little churches) all linked to bigger churches (authorities) all linked to some extra big authorities who then proceed to the big cheese for the latest on biblical studies. He then tells then proceeds to ‘interceed’ to God for instructions- the message goes down to the little community. Big Cheese says you need to walk around in circles and bang your head 4 times on the floor after you ploghed the land and gave away all you had to others – the more you suffer the more you will be like Christ. We are all one (except you and you, oh and you over there – take them away to be shot, just make sure you do take the firing squad through the holistic approach to killing someone – don’t want too much blood on our super thick extra fluffy velvet purple carpets).
Oh nooo, Ryan is keeping us so busy, he hasn’t got time to do his own job!… lol
Ryan:
>>> I don’t see the answer to my question yet:
could these 2 learned gentlemen please supply scripture proof about the “universal church”?
>>> “simply laying my case”
WHAT case? Let me open the file….. Oh Nooooo, it’s empty!
Ryan, either you can’t read, or your simply ignoring our words, or both. In both you are SO wrong! Come back to earth then maybe there will be a dialogue …..
>>> I answered your question:
“Hi Cecilia, out of interest – do you go to a local church of any sort?” here: October 14th, 2009 at 12:24 am
Ryan:1st question, answer: yes. BUT: Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version) (did you see the YES ?!)
“25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” so where does it mention “that we should go to a local church”? (your question 2 me).
>>> yet you didn’t answered my question (which I have made bold here 4 you to see (again?)…
An article with much insight was written here:
Sun, 2009-10-11 17:26 — Gert Marincowitz (not verified) Discerning and Judging Ourselves & Others, and Internal Critique
On which “Stray” did not answered! (that’s now Ryan Peter….) Rather, a few comments further he chose to change the subject …..
If DTW say so, I’ll copy that comment here; I don’t do it now, because it is very long, go read yourself (if you haven’t yet…… but then, how come you commented 3 comments onwards… oh yes, I forgot, you choose what to read …. Interesting….)
Which makes me want to ask the question: is it the “women” thing Ryan? You don’t like it when women speak out, because they reason a little different than men? (oh no, now I’m changing the subject!)
>>> Added to this is another UNANSWERED question I posed to you earlier:
“when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?”
>>> Ryan says: “You have no accountability. (This is an honest reflection, I’m not judging, simply laying my case.)”
my “honest reflection” – you are LYING your case, because this was not a reflection, this was an assessment, a statement.
So please stop lying Ryan?
>>> Ryan, Peter and Paul worked together, side by side. Christianity way back then, was not spread throughout the whole earth. If and when I throw my weight behind the cause of another in a church – as you would like us to speak about – THEN I can take this as an example.
Why are you trying to force “CHURCIANITY” down on us all? Because we dare to differ from your “easy to understand structures”?
>>>” But who is holding you accountable for your actions? Your speech? Your conduct?”
Ever heard of the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, guides into all truth …. etc. Ryan? I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong. Come quiet times with my Lord and Savior, He speaks to me by His Holy Spirit and His Word. Not just of what I did wrong … but also where I am doing well …. Where will I find a person who knows exactly what I meant when I said or done something, Ryan? Do you submit all your entries here to the one your are accountable to?
>>> Deborah, the accountability thing – yah well, you’re actually lucky if you’re on the top. Because this is where all the pastors (leaders) get together and “discuss” problem areas and problem people, and give each other advice (from what they’ve learned in books, or watched on TBN and so on – and when you dare tell them this is a form of gossiping, they slowly “work you out” the church where they want to know exactly what is going on in. no no no no! the leaders don’t gossip, they DISCUSS…
DTW
>>> “A Hindu who becomes saved does not have to conform to western culture and stop eating curry (curry= culture).”
Oh thank heavens for that! I would miss the bryani – nobody can make it like them…. But they still can’t get me to wear a sari! They’ve tried, in vain….
>>> Amanda: I echo DTW’s words : “No shucks, that is horrible. I can see why you made us close our eyes. Haha”. I’ll laugh, but the carrot……..
Well, you know DTW, you know the churches in the world ALL stem from the Mother of all Churches, we all know that. But as the churches progressed out of, or then segregated (I think that’s the word?) Mother -> sisters churches -> Pentecostals -> Charismatic -> and they all divided and divided and divided …. The Mother’s influence can be seen all the way from the top right down through the bottom…
cecilia
Look, you guys can continue ignoring scripture on the importance of local church but it won’t make it go away.
None of you have responded at all to the scriptures I quoted above, especially in light of 1 Corinthians.
In fact, I don’t see any of you quoting scripture anywhere to support your view of local church, besides Revelation 18 which is referring to Babylon and says nothing about not going to a local church or being accountable to a local body of believers, and a few verses about salvation which all say nothing about not going to a local church.
Can anyone of you explain to me why Paul talks about apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors in Ephesians 4? Why Paul writes to Timothy and gives him guidelines for ‘overseers’ or elders in 1 Tim 3? Who the ‘instructions for the church’ in 1 Tim 5 are for? (the church universal, or the local church Timothy is a pastor of?) Why Paul addresses a clearly rebellious church in 1 Corinthians as ‘brothers’? Why John writes a letter to an ‘elder’ in 3 John? Who the ‘elect lady’ is in 2 John? Why Jesus has SEVEN golden lampstands (representing LOCAL churches) in his right hand in Revelation instead of one huge lampstand representing the Universal Church? What Jesus was referring to in Matthew 18:15-17 (take your brother’s sin to ‘the church’. Well, what church? The universal church? Of course not – a LOCAL church, otherwise the scripture makes no sense.)
I’m interested in hearing how you interpret these verses.
I could go on with many scriptures all talking about the local church. I could also use examples of people it seems you seem to have a certain respect for, like Charles Spurgeon. Why was he a pastor of a church? Why did he GO to a church? When you read his sermons there appears to have been a lot of trouble in his day as well, but he never exhorted people not to go to a local church. Why is that?
Your issues (Amanda, this is a response to your response too) with accountability are covered by Jesus in Matthew 18: 15-17. You’re thinking I mean a hierarchy of accountability (top-down type of model) when I am talking about a MUTUAL accountability.
You’re forgetting the Biblical exhortation for leaders to be ‘shepherds’ not bosses or popes etc. Even the word ‘king’ in Hebrew is synonymous with the word ‘shepherd’. ‘Rule’ in the Scriptures has connotations to shepherding, not tyrannical controlling leadership.
Just because the catholic church has gotten this wrong in the past, as well as other churches, doesn’t mean you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible is more than adequate to cover these excesses and show us what leaders we ought to be and what leaders we ought to be accountable to. Jesus the King is more than able to take care of leaders in the church who abuse others.
If I could use my own situation as an example. I am accountable to the pastors in my church, who are accountable to each other and also accountable to all the members in the congregation (the priesthood of all believers). Mutual accountability easily happens in this circumstance.
Not only that, but all the leaders are also accountable to churches that they relate to, which consist of leaders and congregations, and the network of relationships increases so we all have MUTUAL accountability.
This is not a denomination – not a top down leadership structure. Churches are autonomous. This is accountability through friendship – teachers relating to teachers and holding each other accountable, pastors relating to pastors and each holding each other accountable etc.
But they’re doing more than getting together for coffee on Saturdays. It’s all about equipping the saints for the ministry (Eph 4).
Consider how your problem with accountability works against you. How do I know you’re not teaching me lies at your website DTW? What assures me you’re not trying to be some leader of a cult, without being accountable to anyone anywhere? I have no assurance whatsoever about your teachings for the simple fact that there’s no one to vouch for you.
Yes, you can say ‘God vouches for me’ or ‘I am accountable ONLY to God’, but that sounds remarkably similar to what cult leaders like Jim Jones have said. Your non-accountability holds back your ministry from being truly effective. You are as easily able to fall into a heresy, even if that heresy doesn’t look like Brian Mclaren or new age teachings.
No church replaces what GOD does, but local church is important and the scriptures above – plus many more – show that it is God’s heart we all link in to a local church.
Your story of the island DTW doesn’t address the issue when it comes to real life. You or I are not on an island and are not lone believers on an island of people that hate us and want to kill us. Your example is an extreme circumstance and can by no means serve as any type of guideline to normal everyday life.
But to answer some of your question, if the island want to kill the man for his faith then being a martyr is probably what he needs to do rather than run away.
Can I dare you guys to do something?
I triple dog dare you to ask the Lord Jesus Christ yourself in prayer what He says about local church. I am so confident that He wants us all be a part of a local church that I believe He will speak to you about it – like show you a scripture. I am sure you believe He answers prayer? He is faithful!
As to repentance of sin, I believe that repentance of sin is necessary to enter into a relationship with God, and repentance necessary to keep the relationship and grow with God, as per 1 John 1:9. I have no disagreement with you over the issue.
I don’t believe the entire world is saved, I believe that the entire world CAN be saved if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. If you find any writings of mine anywhere where I differ, please quote me on them and we can discuss them.
If I have represented this view incorrectly in these writings, I’ll gladly repent of making that mistake – but I don’t believe I have said anywhere at any time that I don’t believe in the repentance of sin or that the world is actually truly saved and is not required to come to faith in Jesus through repentance. (Not even in my discussions with Emerging church people have I veered away from this viewpoint.)
As I said above, my issue here is not the repentance of sin question. My issue is church accountability. Here is where we mainly differ.
I just want to add here, in case Ryan gets confused again and read into my words what is the easiest for him to make sense – be logic :
I DO HEED TO OTHER RESPECTABLE PEOPLE in my life. But even those word I’ll take to the Bible, so as not to react on man’s word, but on God’s.
cecilia
ohh ohh another apology (as Michael Anthony puts it so nicely…) – I didn’t mean Ryan, Peter and Paul worked together …. Let me put it like this:
Ryan,
Peter and Paul worked together side by side ….
cecilia
DTW,
“A Hindu … If they were to continue putting the dot on the forehead I would say no ways (this is not because of anything westernised, this is because the dot represents the third eye or 6th Chakra).”
Just like Paul said that whatever you eat or drink do it to glorify God and don’t cause anyone else to stumble, what if an Indian Christian puts a dot on their forehead without believing in other gods? Surely God looks at the heart and not the forehead?? (Would you stop a child at a party putting a dot on their forehead? Surely not). It comes down to the motive behind the action!
Hi Cecilia,
I had thought you meant “Yes” to my question of whether you are anti-church. I’m sorry about getting confused, it’s a little difficult with a comments and trying to track what question was asked where.
So you go to a local church then, I’m glad to hear it 🙂
As to your issue with me not commenting on the latest comment on the emergingafrica site, look at the dates of the comments. My comment on that post dates 29-09-2009, that latest comment you’re referring to is dated 11-10-2009. The system at the site allows people to respond to a particular thread, and so I have not responded because the comment is later than mine.
“Which makes me want to ask the question: is it the “women” thing Ryan? You don’t like it when women speak out, because they reason a little different than men? (oh no, now I’m changing the subject!)”
I’m sorry, I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about, lol.
“Why are you trying to force “CHURCIANITY” down on us all? Because we dare to differ from your “easy to understand structures”?
Ag nee Cecilia, so we differ from how we read these scriptures? Okay. But Roger differs to you guys on how he reads scriptures– but that’s not okay? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Plus you haven’t said a stitch about how you DO read these scriptures, which I’m interested in hearing.
I’m okay with people differing. Are you really okay with that too? How far is too far with differing? It seems to me that it’s convenient for DTW or Amanda or even perhaps yourself to ignore certain scriptures on the local church.
But scripture must interpret scripture. If we have a scripture saying that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth and another saying we must not neglect meeting together, we must reconcile the two and not throw away the latter one because it is inconvenient for us. I’m sure you agree – we must be doers of the Word, not just hearers.
““when you read McLaren, when you read Rick Warren, when you read Rick Joyner, when you read whatever you read, do you also “advice” them which translations to use, seen I often find them using a translation that’s not actually a Bible, namely “the Message”?””
I don’t know any of these people personally, so I can’t ‘advise’ them. But if they quote out of a different translation that I’m unfamiliar with then I check it up, I study it, I check it out, AND I speak to my pastor about it all WHILE praying about it and believing that Jesus will guide me into all truth.
“Ever heard of the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, guides into all truth …. etc. Ryan? I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong. Come quiet times with my Lord and Savior, He speaks to me by His Holy Spirit and His Word. Not just of what I did wrong … but also where I am doing well …. Where will I find a person who knows exactly what I meant when I said or done something, Ryan? Do you submit all your entries here to the one your are accountable to?”
Yes, my pastor is able to see all my correspondence. You could even call him directly if you had an issue with something I say.
Yes, God speaks to me too through His Holy Spirit and His Word. May I be so bold as to suggest you ask Him then what He has to say about local church?
Then again, since you say you do go to a local church then I don’t see why we should argue about it. I’d be interested in hearing if Amanda and DTW go to a local church too, though.
“I don’t have to have a mere sinful human being telling me I’m wrong.”
But get at what you’re saying here – you’re also a sinful human being. What makes you so confident that you can hear what the Holy Spirit is saying ‘better’ than a pastor or another sinful human being?
Am I saying they can hear better than you? No, I’m not saying that either. But I AM saying that why do you think you can hear better than them at what God is telling you? You could be selectively hearing what God is saying based on your own subjective feelings, whereas a pastor could tell you what God is saying based on an objective viewpoint.
I don’t know about you, but I find it incredibly easy to justify a sin when I’m doing it. It often takes a pastor or friend to slap me over the head and remind me that God would not possibly justify that sin – that actually I’m not listening to Him.
Are you truly THAT able to hear so clearly from God without your own justifications and beliefs clouding what He is saying? Ever? If you are, wow. Glad to finally meet a sinless human being…
Ryan Peter
Ha. Ha. Ha.
Correct. You do not have any way of knowing if DTW is teaching lies. That is very sad.
Christians have fled the liberal church and the purpose driven church and the emergent church, not because we deny Scripture, but because we hold to Scripture and they don’t. Do you not know what Spurgeon did with the downgrade controversy?
We know your brand of accountability only to well. You have come onto this blog and rebuked us, yet you defended Nic Paton’s ‘poetry’! Come on! We have seen this before. This is exactly what happens in the ‘local church’ under hirelings.
Ryan, how the ‘blessed subtractions’ follow Scripture to be part of the church, is no longer your concern. Know this, we will not submit to the yoke of the illegitimate church. We will not emerge into the unknowing. We will also not ubuntu.
let me ask you something Peter (i mean Ryan):
if a person is in “a local church” – where is this “local church”.
and if I feel led by God’s Spirit NOT to be in this “local church”, and go to a church in another area, then I’m not at the “local church”, yes? so where do you put me then? in the box of the “universal church”?
way back your emphasis was on the “local church” and “the universal church”. then you shift your focus to “accountability”. so which must we answer. choose one and let’s end it nicely off and then go on to the other?
and because I said that, I’m not gonna go on to accountability now. You have questions to answer please, before you move on to accountability…
cecilia
Ryan,
Your argument is becoming repetitive and frankly even obsessive. I pointed out circular reasoning in the previous post – please take a deep breathe and think about what that actually means – it seems you may have reached dizziness from spinning the same Eisegesis. In fact you are not far from becoming a ‘local-church-only’ legalist.
Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one’s own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text.
Let me give some insight:
Not a week goes by without me hearing of Christians walking away from their local church because the pastor has introduced extra-biblical or non-biblical ideas or subtle forms of heresy or even associated that ministry with very questionable – let’s just call it associations. It is normally the mature Christians that spot this first. Younger Christians are more vulnerable. We are living in the time of the great apostasy – if you are in a sound church that uses sound expository teaching and the worship does not de-personalize, humanize or effeminise God but is based on a true fear of God then thank our Lord everyday.
I am a BIG BELEIVER in the local church but I don’t switch off my mind as to how quickly a local church can be infiltrated and the fellowship compromised. We fight a constant battle to preserve true biblical standards in our churches.
But what if the church must go underground? The single biggest move right now is people meeting in home churches because they have left the compromised local churches. I submit to you that Jesus Christ is able to preserve and keep his church in this hour of apostasy. I will never put submission to a church above submission to the truth, the truth is not a ‘it’, it is a person – Jesus Christ our Lord.
Insinuating the administrator of this blog could be a leader of a cult is disrespectful to the favour (not entitlement) she has offered you in sharing your opinion.
I wish you would stop treating fellow believers as the enemy and go chew on some other bone (of contention).
Ryan Peter
You are offended by what we say against the emerged ones and you are digging for a way to stop us. True or false?
Oh..ok then, carry on…it would appear you would make any excuse unders the sun to not obey God.
Ryan Peter
Diversions, diversions, diversions. Think I am just gonna called Ryan ‘master at diversion’ Peter
I’ve had enough. Go cry on the guys at EmergingAfrica’s shoulders. I can’t take having to repeat myself over and over and over again. If your only little complaint is that YOU THINK we are not acountable to anyone (just remember this is what you think and not what you actually know) then please take your little bag, put Pooh Bear inside and take a long walk off a short plank.
No really. Enough is enough. Since you first started comenting on this blog (and the old one) the key issue has been about Repentance of Sin and you still 2 months later or more refuse to answer this question. This is a major sore thumb for all new age Christians because repentance of sin and living a LIFE the way God COMMANDS YOU is impossible hence Brian Mc Laren says that evreything must change. The gospel needs to change so that mankind can sin and not feel like they have done anything wrong.
Well I had no idea Emergents could lay down a better plan than Jesus Christ. Apparently every born again Christian since 2000 ago has had it all wrong. wow…
Ryan
>> Consider how your problem with accountability works against you. How do I know you’re not teaching me lies at your website DTW?
I thought you had a bible that teaches you? I’m confused.
>> What assures me you’re not trying to be some leader of a cult, without being accountable to anyone anywhere?
Ryan, you know what, you are genuinely not a nice person. Cult leaders usually make ever effort to keep their sheep captive with false teaching and they insist on accountability to men and not Jesus Christ – for apparently men seem to be stonger in this regard. Well I shall hold you captive no more on this blog (removes virtual chains). Now please in a very nice voice I request that you go to EmergingAfrica or any other place you feel confortable where Jesus and Satan are welcome at the same time and snuggle in there.
You think your issue is church accountability, It’s not. It’s that you follow after people, emergent teachers who mock, insult and riducule Jesus Christ, they tear out the pages of the bible one by one. And you think this is funny, you laugh. This is the ISSUE Ryan, that you speak like a Christian but inbetween say things that make your ‘authenticity’ of being a Christian null and void. You are fake. You can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t be on Jesus’s side and on Satan’s side at the same time.
>> I don’t insinuate DTW is a leader of a cult, I’m making an extreme example to show forth my case – that when anyone claims ‘I don’t need accountability’ they are actually claiming ‘I am infallible’
Disgusting. The Word of God is Infallable. I am accountable to fellow believers in Jesus Christ and to God through Jesus Christ himself. I’m just not part of YOUR group because you speak blasphemies against Jesus Christ and His Saints. You insult Jesus Christ with the people you choose to follow as ‘mentors’, you insult Jesus Christ with downright lies that come out of your mouth, you insult the TRUE body of Christ by lambasting us with names and cry hatespeech when you don’t like what you hear but we are supposed to tolerate your beguiling attitude towards us disguised under a word called ‘love’?
Anyhow, that was the long version of GOOD BYE. You are fee however to come back here and read the gospel of Jesus Christ where the message never alters, where the gospel does not need to change in any way or form since Jesus walked this earth. You are no longer welcome to comment.
@ Michael,
Thank you for your frankness and kind rebuke. I admit that I’m getting quite impassioned, but DTW asked me to be honest and I have been to this point as best I can be.
I admit that circular reasoning is a problem and I understand the difference between eisegesis and exegesis. I also somehow missed your earlier posts for which I apologise.
I’ve got no issues with a house church but DTW has not actually ever (in previous correspondence as well) ever answered me directly as to whether she goes to any type of church at all (even a house church) and Amanda has only defended my statements in a way that makes me assume that she doesn’t go to any local church at all either (DTW’s defence makes me believe the same thing). Cecilia has admitted that she does, but I am yet to answer her other questions, which I will do in time.
The problem with this is that neither I, DTW, Amanda, Cecilia or you are infallible. Neither are pastors. But I’ve seen way too many Christians claim ‘I don’t need church’ and then veer off on all sorts of strange paths. They can also become over-judgemental of all Christians and honestly have an attitude that they are infallible in their interpretation of the scriptures.
I don’t insinuate DTW is a leader of a cult, I’m making an extreme example to show forth my case – that when anyone claims ‘I don’t need accountability’ they are actually claiming ‘I am infallible’.
If I say “go to church” people immediately assume I mean “go to the institution down the road.” No, that’s not what I mean. The problem is that people assume that I may mean something about a simple word like ‘church’ because of their own history.
I am not treating fellow believers as the enemy. In fact, I would call DTW and Amanda and Cecilia fellow believers but I suspect they wouldn’t call me the same. My heart is not to attack. If DTW is not linked in with any church (not an institution) and has no accountability she is in a dangerous position and I have a heart to see both truth and relationships championed at the same time, with truth not being watered down but with relationships used to bring people into the truth. This is why I’m passionate about local church, too.
I will rest the argument, except to only answer Cecilia and others’ questions. At the same time, I will trust the Holy Spirit to convict where conviction must take place and no longer labour the point.
Thank you again,
@ DTW
Since you first started comenting on this blog (and the old one) the key issue has been about Repentance of Sin and you still 2 months later or more refuse to answer this question.
I answered this question in an earlier post which I see has not gone live or somehow lost in the system. I said I have no disagreement with you on this. I’m all for repentance of sin, by your definition. My original answer was more comprehensive and i’ll paste it when I get home.