How far is too far in the Emerging Church
How far is too far in the Emerging Church
How far is too far? The Emerging Church seeks to change everything but on what grounds?
Because the Bible is out of date?
Because we are in a time where people supposedly think differently than before hence we need new rules?
Because it’s too difficult to understand?
Because there are things that God commands you not do and you don’t like that because that means changing your worldly ways or?
It is because you/they really don’t like Jesus Christ the Son of God and therefore secretly have to change the Bible hoping no one will notice?
Is it because this is one big science experiment to see how far they can push the boundaries of God’s Word to see if man is capable of coming up with their own rules hence replacing God.
But let’s say that Brian McLaren got his way and everything changed. Everything has now changed, what is left, what exactly are we left with?
By what standards are we left to know what is right from wrong, good from evil. There are no more Godly Christians standards, we only have man made standards…
So:
What is the new definition of a GOOD person?
and while we are at it…
What is the new definition of a BAD person?
and where does all of this leave Sin and repentance of sin?
Some verses regarding God’s Word taken from God’s Word:
Trying to change God’s Word:
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Sin is Good, Darkness the NEW light:
Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Job 17:12
12 “They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.
Luke 11:35
35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
I grew up in the “penticostal””church”been saved every friday nigt at youth,and many more times at Bible study sunday school morning and sunday night services.I can’t begin to tell you my my entire testimony.Save to say Some years back,i found my heart and mind severly challenged to seek truth.This lead me to discover personal sincere prayer,this led to conviction of sin for which i repented – through this i was delivered from Monkey tabacco an also plain old baccy.- this led me to leaving the halls of “churchianity” and opression to discover The Lords bible based and backed spirit -This brought revelation of the corruption in what is portyrayed on TV and in denominations.I continue to repent to be saved.
Eddie
Now that is a testimony. Amazing what genuine prayer and REPENTANCE OF SIN through Jesus Christ can do 🙂 YAY!!
now i am concidered a “backslider” and am often told you have to fellowship somwhere and fall under “authority”-Since i don’t tithe -i have enough-since i lay my hands on my children – they are healed-it has taken some years to unlearn all the mind altering stuff-But Stumbling on your blog has been a blessing-i feel and think likewise now.It is a lone road to travel -but a sure one.We will be few and persecuted,this is right.Remember Daniel,Shadrack.Meshak.and Abednigo.Chow
Eddy
I know exactly what you mean. It is a long and lonely road, but I smile all the way knowing who Jesus Christ is in my life and He walks with me always and you and everyone other genuinely saved christian.
Unlearning all this mind altering stuff has been the task of every single born again Christian out there. When you take a step back out of the darkness into the light and you see for the first time with the guidance of the Holy Spirit what we are REALLY being taught – is it only frightening.
All those sweet words, those psychological build you up sermons, how they removed the power from Jesus over the last 200 years and gave it to the congregation who wanted their own power to be ‘gods’. All they kept in the equation was the name of Jesus, the rest has NOTHING to do with Him.
I am amazed every day at the things I hear on tv and read – how it’s so bad out there but everyone thinks it’s so good. Everyone is blind.
GREAT NEWS IS THAT: Jesus promised He would look after His children, and He will.
Yes on that! Eddy, one of your biggest def fences is sincerity in discerning. and real deep caring for the people (of all creeds and nations) around you. I am mostly involved with the lives of Indiër people, saved and unsaved. This power-business has invaded even their churches, and man, do they suffer! Because Hindu’s are very much into the “show”, the extra ordinary, stuff, they fall hook line and sinker for these power/miracle displays! Bringing them all back to the Bible, is the only and best way to take their focus off man and shift their attention to God, His Word, His will, His care (well, everything about Him). point is, if we could know Him and do all the miracles etc. ourselves, would we still regard Him as God? or would we put Him on a shelve as the one who started it all, couldn’t handle it, and now us humans, must finish the job? My husband said last night, even when and if the world is in turmoil, God is in control. Stand strong Eddie, live, sleep, walk, talk the Word. It’s all in the Word of God. All the strong men in the Bible were alone. Jesus also. that’s why they are trying so fervently to ‘proof’ that He was married, etc. etc. Ask God and He will bring over your path someone who’ll walk alongside you (and your family), to encourage you, be there to talk to, etc. don’t let the churches play the blame-game on you. establish your facts on the word of God and “no weapon formed against you, shall prosper”. and Eddie, you are NOT a backslider! as a matter of fact, if I could have, I would have took the rope around your avatar’s head and changed it into a crown. Keep Standing! cecilia
C
Bringing them back to repentance is where you start, by showing them that this is what the Bible commands. Without repentance of being caught up in this stuff and wanting to seek the truth, just ‘bringing’ them back to the Bible will make no real difference. It might seem like they have removed themselves but do they then go in the other direction of taking on more of the law. It’s like a scale, they either over the top and fall prey to false signs and wonders produced by evil spirits or they then tip completely over to the other side and become more law orientated and again deceived by bondage.
Repentance is what changes a person. Repentance is what shifts our focus back to God. And we only want to repent when we have the Holy Spirit in our lives. When you get saved you repent and are saved by faith in Jesus Christ that he died for us. Repentace thereafter does not stop, if one does want to repent because they think they did it once and now they are permanently saved and can carry on their ways (with a few minor adjustments like attending church and listening to Hillsong) then they have a serious problem and their so called salvation needs to be questioned – not by others but by YOURSELF.
The entire point of having the Holy Spirit come to abide in you is to CONVICT one of sin and repent. If people can’t see anything wrong in their life, what they believe and how they go against the word of God then they are NOT saved. For if they were, they would not be doing this. They would be seriously TROUBLED in their hearts and they would HEAR the Holy Spirit warning them to CHANGE.
If there is no willingness to change ones life and there is no double conscience in ones life that what you think is right is wrong because GOD CLEARLY SAYS SO IN HIS WORD then you have to question yourself. (I call it a double conscience because it’s you love for Jesus Christ and YOUR conscience and then the Holy Spirit chastising you who speaks loud and clear)
When one is truly saved you know it! God knows our hearts. He knows if you prefer darkness and evil and a fake smile over Him. He knows. And you know too…and as much as they will deny it and argue – they can’t get away from a guilty conscience. So at the end of the day eveyone has one of 2 choices:
REPENT and love the Lord thy God with all your heart, or don’t and stop lying to everyone. This is the difference between a REAL born again Christian and a FAKE one. The FAKE one is the cause of all the problems the church faces because they happily accept any teaching that comes their way and have no Holy Spirit conscience. They can’t see anything wrong with what they are doing and because they speak about ‘love’ this should (as far as they are concerned) make up for their disobedience.
Well it doesn’t. Only genuine repenting for ones disobedience will change the way God views you. And yes God loves everyone, that is why He sent His ONLY Son to die for us that we can be saved. But He is also a God of WRATH for ALL those who refuse to CHANGE their ways. Changing your ways means you repent of your sin and make a concerted effort with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (that gentle voice that says, ‘no, that is wrong, stop it!’) to stop sinning. And when you do sin, you feel terrible and you say sorry to God through Jesus Christ the Son of God.
Repentance never stops. The more you repent the more you want to repent because repenting of your sin shows God that you are truly subserviant to Him. Repenting of sin shows genuine LOVE. The more you repent the stronger your relationship with Jesus, the more you repent the more God speaks to you through His Holy Spirit. The more He speaks to you, the more you want to LOVE HIM by repenting.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is so easy to understand. It’s so simple and so genuine and so full of love and so full of peace and joy and happiness. I fear God for He is my Father and I WILL obey Him. At the same time I LOVE HIM with all my heart and I know HE LOVES ME. I am still a sinner but I am saved by faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for me.
I warn because I LOVE with a Christ-like love, a Holy Spirit inspired love. I love not with a pretentious, false, pat you on the back, hug you because I must SHOW my love otherwise people will think I don’t love. This is not the love I want to know. This is a love that is man made, there is nothing genuine about man-made ‘ohhh look how much I love, and speak about us all loving one another, love’. It’s false, it’s fake, it’s a downright lie. I do not like fake people who cause nothing but hurt. And by saying that I do not like someone who is fake does not mean I do not love them – love them enough to speak to them about Jesus that they know what GENUINE love is.
There will never be genuine love between a real born again Christian and the ‘new age’ Christian. For a born again Christian’s love is Holy Spirit inspired and will not LIE, and hide the truth. A new age Christian will act like they love you, but deep down they don’t. They are the ones that speak nice words and want to be accepted by all, loved by all and will give up everything including Jesus Christ and His Gospel to be accepted by mankind instead.
Truth and Lies will ALWAYS be at odds with one another. And as much as you try UNITE the two it will NEVER happen – it might seem like it’s happening but it’s not – it’s all fake, the whole world is faking it – but we all know fake love does not last and sooner rather than later you will turn on eachother. The born again Christian will however still be standing strong and because they LOVED with genuine Christ-like love from the beginning they will stand out amongst the thorns and people will see the truth and SEPERATE themselves from the liars and turn to Jesus Christ who LOVED the world so much what He died for you and not the fake Christ who hates the world so much that he will lie to you just so that he can destory you in the end. That is what fake love does; it destroys. No good can come from a fake smile.
Gosh this should be an article… lol. I will post it later this evening.
mmmm, agreed! and yes, I didn’t want to put in a loooong comment, but yes, many of these people I’m talking about, even the ones that say they are christians, do not know about repentance. they are quite shocked every time I just immediately post the question – did you ask God’s forgiveness? did you acknowledge what you did/said? repentance is not preached as major (main?) message anymore! people rather let their congregation experience “the super-natural”, afraid they might not “draw” people, or “keep” people! a man made structure, this church(es) in our days! sad, very sad… and then when you differ, they say they will pray 4 u! thanks 4 ur answer DTW! appreciated! c
Hi Cecilia, out of interest – do you go to a local church of any sort?
I ask simply out of curiosity. My church preaches repentance and I believe a lifestyle of repentance is good and right and Christian (and live one as best as I can) – just your last statement about the church(es) made me wonder if you do go to a local church as it sounds as if you’re quite anti church (I could be wrong).
Ryan Peter, last time I checked we told we not to come back here as you are happy to associated with the Discernamentalist Mafia website crowd, you are anti-Christian.
Ryan Peter
So does Rick Warren.
I listened to your sermon. I cannot recall the details, so feel free to contradict me.
You preached human effort. Is that right?
A good Christian sermon gives the Law full blast in order to kill you. Law is everything we must do and must not do. We break God’s Law hour by hour with the things that we do and the things we do not do. Word, thought and deed. Nobody should be able to listen to a good sermon and feel that he is doing okay or with a little more work here and there, he’ll make it. The only response to good Law preaching is “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner”. That is it.
Then you preach the Good News! Preach it! Do not preach the Christian. Preach the Christ! It is the only message that has the power to bring life to dead sinners. Christians need to hear it in every sermon. If you do not preach Christ and Him crucified, then it is not a Christian sermon. Drop the human wisdom and psycology. Preach Jesus Christ and repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His Name.
@Admo
Not sure if you’ve got me confused with someone else, but no one ever asked me not to come back here. I haven’t been here in a while though.
I’ve never associated myself with the Discernmentalist Mafia crowd, save a few comments on the website.
Ryan Peter. But you did know the fake discerningtheworld3 website and it’s creator(s) Chad Holtz and commented there minutes within it going online and Discernamentalist Mafia. And yes it’s been a while since you have been here. Please keep it that way. You were told to leave for this exact reason, ganging up on DTW and siding with anti-Christian people who insult Jesus Christ.
Hi Admo,
Yes, I knew about the DTW3 website. Yes, I commented on there and allowed comments from that site on my blog. No, I didn’t know that Chad was responsible for the site.
Secondly, I apologised publically to DTW here on this blog when it was at WordPress for allowing the comments from DTW3 on my site and subsequently deleted them.
DTW seemed to have accepted my apology, but asked me to see if I could remove my comments at the DTW3 site. Since I never knew who was actually responsible for that site I was never able to do so.
I was quite sure DTW had forgiven me for my blunder, and I was genuinely sorry for having hurt her over the issue (I said so in my apology). I was never asked to leave, but haven’t been here for a long time since I couldn’t access the site since it was moved over until recently. It may have been because I use Linux. Perhaps during that time I missed something, but I genuinely thought DTW had accepted my apology and forgiven me over the issue.
Ryan, apology accepted. Apologies for being harsh. Please continue.
This however is not a get out of “comment moderation free” card. It was as clear as daylight from the very beginning as to what they are and as clear as mud to those who emailed us by the dozen a day asking how anyone can fall for these people’s blasphemy. Not many people like to comment, but we found out from that little extravaganza that many are reading this blog and they do like to email and many are happy to give information, even ones who told you how emerging your friendship was to them and “pat your back”.
Well we don’t do back patting. A spade is a spade here at Discerning the World and Deborah would have it no other way. If one can’t handle the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ then one needs to move on and find a place where they can get their ears tickled.
That is all for now. Deborah says : You may chat away for now… Roger on the other hand has cooked his goose.
Thanks Admo and Deborah.
@ Cecilia,
Above I was asking if you were ‘anti-church’ as your post really sounded as if you were. I only ask in light of scriptures like Hebrews 10:25 and others, which encourage us that we should go to a local church.
You may not be anti-church, though, but just interested in hearing your take.
Thx!
Ryan Peter
Here is my take.
Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.
Shane Hipps: all sails [religions] catch the same wind [Spirit of God].
Get out!
Rob Bell: the Christian life is the better way to live.
Flee!
Rick Warren: Jesus Christ came to give you a Mulligan.
Run for you life!
Faith = doubt.
To say you know = arrogance.
To question the Word of God = humility.
For God to send somebody to hell = injustice.
To steal from the rich to give to the poor = justice.
Christians can learn from other religions.
You can enter the presence of God through meditation.
Yoga is for Christians.
Feed the goats. Entertain the goats. Starve the sheep.
The kingdom of God is established on earth through good works.
The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to the kingdom of God.
You are the gospel.
Don’t proclaim the Gospel, just live the life.
Don’t speak of what Jesus Christ did, just live the way He lived and do what He did.
People are supposed to look at my life and deduce the Gospel? Are you kidding me! No, Ryan. Christians cannot stand that. They have left. The pastors are scratching their heads to come up with new ways of getting goats to act like sheep. Good luck with that. Christians do meet and they do stir up one another to love and good works and they do encourage each other, while the ‘church’ lusts after the world and it’s kingdom.
Ryan Peter
Charles Spurgeon:
Ryan Peter, been bit busy- didn’t read posts. b4 i answer, what exactly in my comment made you ask this question? cecilia
Cecilia, thx for the response. It was this quote of yours above that led me to ask the question:
“repentance is not preached as major (main?) message anymore! people rather let their congregation experience “the super-natural”, afraid they might not “draw” people, or “keep” people! a man made structure, this church(es) in our days! sad, very sad… and then when you differ, they say they will pray 4 u! thanks 4 ur answer DTW! appreciated! c”
Are you referring to all (local) churches in our day?
Ryan
Where does it say in the bible that churches are buildings? Has it crossed yer mind that the church aka the body of Christ is SPIRITUAL.
The bible tells us to fellowship with born again Christians not just any ol’ person who says they are Christian when they are not – kinda defeats the object of not letting wolves into the sheep pen.
Hebrews 10:25
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Ditto what Amanda said, “Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.”
You preach to the unsaved you proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the unsaved. But if they do not love the Lord and refuse salvation then they are to stay OUTSIDE of the pen otherwise they will come in and cause nothing but DIVISION by speaking falsely. Until such time as they repent (and they know in their hearts what’s going on in their lives) we are not to fellowship with such people.
There is a BIG difference between going out and preaching to the unsaved and eating at the table with them and preaching the gospel of Jesus to them than going to eat at a table of known sinners who have heard the gospel of Jesus and REFUSE to repent.
@ Amanda,
“Christians are under no obligation, none whatsoever to attend a ‘church’ where the doctrines of demons are taught, either by what is said or by what is left unsaid.”
Of course what you say here is true, but remember Spurgeon was a pastor of a local church and I seriously doubt he would have supported people not going to a local church.
These doctrines of demons are nothing new. The Bible warns us about them because they were around in those days, and they’ll be around in the days to come. In the midst of all this, the saints should not neglect getting together(Heb 10: 24,25) and encouraging each other to good works etc., for it is through the church that the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places (Eph 3: 10).
Eph 4:11-13 talks about how God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to “equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God…”
So, a local church is important where all of this equipping goes on. The sheep must stay together or they become easy for the wolves to pick. Part of the reason why false prophets etc. are so easily able to come into the church today is because there is so much disunity – people are drifting from here to there and are not in accountable relationships or in proper pastoral care. They then begin to hold onto the gurus who have all the books and all the hype, without even realising that these gurus are false teachers.
That’s at least the way I’m starting to see it. Let me know what you think of that.
It might be incredibly difficult to find a local church that does not have false teachings sneaking in but I’m convinced that Jesus IS building His church like He promised, and He wouldn’t – in his Sovereign grace – let any Christian be in an area where they cannot fellowship with true believers and be equipped for the ministry (a local church). But it may be the responsibility of people to actually look for a true church in their city, even if it means driving 40 minutes to get there.
@ DTW
Check my response to Amanda. I don’t believe the church is a building (of course you’re right) but I do believe the church is the “priesthood of all believers” (as the Bible calls it) which means it’s ‘a people’, and i believe that we ought to be ‘a people’ together and grow together, not be on our own.
Hi there,
DTW the intended recipients of the epistles were local churches, case in point the church in Thesolonica, “Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.”
They are believers meeting togeather in defined bodies. Obviously it’s not about the buildings but it is about serving in and worshiping with other believers.
Think of the following 2 verses, “For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.” and “I robbed other churches by taking wages {from} {them} to serve you;” These verses aren’t refering to spiritual groupings but defined bodies of believers.
I’m not arguing that some churches are messed up, and I’m not saying that the church is made up of any Tom, Dick or Harry. I’m saying that The Church Universal is made up of bodies of local churches.
I reread the comment and I should have written, “I’m not arguing that some churches aren’t messed up, and I’m not saying that the church is made up of any Tom, Dick or Harry either. I’m saying that The Church Universal is made up of believers out of
bodies oflocal churches.”Ryan:1st question, answer: yes. BUT: Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)
“25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” so where does it mention “that we should go to a local church”? (your question 2 me).
2nd answer: no. BUT: if u go 2 & look at churches, there are very few that’s not shod on the Purpose Driven Movement.
Ryan, on your last comment I’m gonna answer you from the Purpose Driven Blueprint by Tamara http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/chp1.htm
“Is it Through the Blood of Our Redeemer Jesus Christ or the Lifeblood of a Local Church That We Have Spiritual Life?
In Churchianity, commitment to a local church is imperative.
“The Bible says a Christian without a church home is like an organ without a body, a sheep without a flock, or a child without a family. It is an unnatural state. The Bible says, ‘You belong in God’s household with every other Christian.’ [endnote: Ephesians 2:19b (LB)]” (PDL; p. 132; bold added)
Actually, Rick Warren’s first instance of “the Bible says” has no endnote because this is not what God’s Word says! Going ahead and claiming “the Bible says” when it does not say so is scriptural malpractice. His second instance of “the Bible says” is from one of the versions that has changed God’s Word.
“For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” (Ephesians 2:18-19)
Because of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells us and makes us a part of the household of God, the true Body of Christ, which is not the local church. Fellowship with other believers, which is important, does not require a local church for it to take place. Yes, fellowship in a local church is ideal, when there is one available that isn’t trading in the Word of God for popular false doctrines sweeping Christianity today. But man-centered, purpose-driven Churchianity takes committing to a local church to a whole new level in its replacement of Christ with community.
“You must be connected to a church fellowship to survive spiritually.” —Rick Warren’s 40 Days of Community Workbook (Emphasis added)7
“Any organ that is detached from the body will not only miss what it was created to be, it will also shrivel and die quickly. The same is true for Christians that are uncommitted to any specific congregation.” —Rick Warren (Bold added)8
“If an organ is somehow severed from its body, it will shrivel and die. It cannot exist on its own, and neither can you. Disconnected and cut off from the lifeblood of a local body, your spiritual life will wither and eventually cease to exist. [endnote: Ephesians 4:16 (no version listed)]” (PDL; p. 131; emphasis added)
The local churches are not the source of “lifeblood” that gives life to our spirit! Ephesians 4:16 says absolutely nothing of these outlandish claims. If our spiritual life ceased to exist because we didn’t attend a local church, then the local church would be God’s redeeming agent in salvation.
Contrarily, true spiritual life is the eternal life we are given when our spirit is born again. True spiritual life is the life that Jesus Christ lives in us through His indwelling Holy Spirit, when we receive God’s free gift of salvation by believing the Gospel of Christ. This true spiritual life is sustained by the Lord God, not by the local church! And if this life ever ceased to exist, that person would have no salvation. It is through the blood of our Redeemer Jesus Christ, not the lifeblood of a local church, that we have spiritual life and are delivered from death. But “the message hasn’t changed”!
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.… And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:2-4, 10)
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:20-21)
In addition, rather than the pure and sinless life and blood of Jesus Christ, look at the “lifeblood” that Rick Warren would have us depend on for our spiritual life:
“There will never be a perfect church this side of heaven, because every church is filled with pagans, carnal Christians, and immature believers.” —Rick Warren (Emphasis added)9”
>> as I always say: we’ve got choices to make, we carry the consequences.
thanks Debs, thanks Amanda!
cecilia
Ryan
Jesus is the High Priest. Who exaclty do you think should be includes as ‘a people’ under His Authority? Everyone?
We are actually speaking about two different things here. You are speaking about a world living in harmon and peace and growing together all following ‘a’ God no matter what faith they choose. I am speaking about only born again Christians being ‘a people’ under Jesus Christ.
Mark Penrith.
I get what you are saying. There is a very slight different however to what you say and what I said. I say that only SAVED born again believers form part of the body of Christ – the church of which Jesus Christ is the High Priest.
You are saying that all churches or denominations or people who say they are Christian fall under the universal or spiritual church. Not so.
You can have 1 born again saved believer within an entire group (church) of people. Only that 1 is part of the body of Christ. The rest are not.
C
I just ammended the formatting of your comment cos there were no line spaces or paragraphs but I think I messed things up now – please check that that is what you wrote and I have put the line spaces in the right place.
Ryan Peter:
Disunity? I don’t think so. The body of Christ, with Him as the head and not the church, is working just fine.
Try as you might, you will never be able to unify the body of Christ to the New Age, liberal, emergent, ubuntu, world religions. It cannot be done.
So, what are you going to do?
@ DTW
“Jesus is the High Priest. Who exaclty do you think should be includes as ‘a people’ under His Authority? Everyone?”
The Bible teaches that ALL nations are under the sovereign authority of God. Do you not believe that God reigns over all, even if people do not believe in Him? He rules the nations with His rod of iron.
“We are actually speaking about two different things here. You are speaking about a world living in harmon and peace and growing together all following ‘a’ God no matter what faith they choose. I am speaking about only born again Christians being ‘a people’ under Jesus Christ.”
I have not in any single writing of mine EVER said that all can follow “a God no matter what faith they choose.” I’ve never once said that all religions lead to the Father. I’ve never advocated one-world religion in any single one of my writings absolutely anywhere. Even in my conversations with people who might even believe, I have never agreed with them.
And I certainly NEVER will, and certainly did not say that in my post about the church above anywhere. I agree with you 100 percent on this – there is NO salvation found anywhere except through Jesus Christ, and repentance of sin is absolutely necessary to enter into (and maintain) this relationship with God.
ONLY those that believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and salvation are the universal church, but the universal church is made up of local church. It just makes geographical sense, especially if we use the Bible as our model for understanding church. As Mark Penrith pointed out, the epistles are written to local bodies of believers.
And even amongst these local bodies of believers both Paul, John and Peter warned that there were false prophets within them. Rather than exhort them to ‘come out’ of the local church because there were false prophets there, they rather exhorted them to kick the false prophets out.
Remember Jesus’ parable about the wheat and tares, and how God lets the tares grow up amongst the wheat and pulls them out later to be burned? The church will always consist of both wheat and tares, and God will sort out the tares.
Consider the book of 1 Corinthians. This is written from Paul to a local church of believers.
Yet it is full of rebuke – lawsuits amongst believers (1 Cor 6); sexual sin in the church (1 Cor 5); divisions in the church (1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 1:10); idolatry (1 Cor 10); abuse of spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12); false doctrine (1 Cor 15 – some were saying Christ wasn’t raised from the dead).
Look at how Paul addresses them, with 1 Cor 3 as an example.
“But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ… (vs 3) for you are still of the flesh.”
1 Cor 1:10: “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and same judgement… (vs 11)… there is quarrelling among you, my brothers“.
See 1 Cor 7:17 – “Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.” (A little showing of Paul’s heart towards local church here, and how local church is what is in mind – not universal church.)
1 Cor 10 vs 1 – Paul calls the Corinthians “brothers” and then talks about idolatry in the Corinthian church.
vs 14 “Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.”
Check 1 Cor 11: 17 – 19 “But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. I hear there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognised.”
Paul is writing to a local church, saying there are factions in the local church. He warned against division earlier in the epistle, but he also says here that we should expect there to be some form of faction in the local church – but he never exhorts these factions to stop fellowshipping together. Rather, he repeatedly exhorts throughout the book (1 Cor 1:10-17 and 1 Cor 3) that they should be united – under the headship and authority of Jesus Christ, not under any person and not under any other doctrine except what was passed down to them.
He never once exhorts those who are genuine among them to ‘get out’ but rather exhorts those who are genuine to either (a) get the others out – (1 Cor 5) or build the others up into truth (1 Cor 12; 13; 14: 26, 16:14; and in many other places) and then reaffirms this in his next epistle to the same church in 2 Cor 2: 1-11, where he says the sinner that was previously expelled can now be forgiven and welcomed back, as the punishment has run its course.
Consider this, would you call ‘Christians’ involved with sexual immorality, divisions, abuse of spiritual gifts, lawsuits, false doctrine etc. ‘brothers’? Paul did, evident here in 1 Corinthians without question.
All of these issues are also in our church(es) today. There is no place in the bible where the Bible exhorts us to leave the local church on account of false doctrines and prophets – rather to deal with them in the local church.
@ Cecilia,
Please see my response to DTW above for some more examples.
Heb 10:25 says “not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another…”
By geographical logic, the letter of Hebrews is addressed to the Church (universal) made up of churches (local).
See the last verse of Hebrews – Heb 13:22 “I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly. You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I will send you if he comes soon. Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those who come from Italy send you greetings.”
The letter talks about leaders. This implies that there is local church(es) being addressed – local church would have a leader, whereas Christians on their own (getting together for coffee on Saturdays, for instance) is not what is in mind. There is an implication of leadership, which implies local church(es).
You didn’t really address everything I said about Ephesians 4 above, where the church is made up of pastors, teachers etc. A local church has people functioning in these posts, but a group of people getting together is not a local church if everyone just does their own thing.
The sense of community is without a doubt very clear in the Scriptures. It’s all over the place – remembering, too, that the Hebrew culture that Christianity comes from was very community focused.
Your salvation is not found IN your community, it is found IN Christ. It is worked with the Holy Spirit.
Consider the fact that the letter of Philippians is written to a local church (the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi – Phil 1: 1) and Paul addresses the local church as his ‘beloved’ in Phil 2: 12, and says “Therefore, my beloved… work our your salvation with fear and trembling.” He is talking to a local church, a body of believers, made up of individuals.
Our relationship is with God first, yes, and we should love and fellowship with those who God loves and fellowships with, after all we want to echo His heart.
Remember what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments? “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind… and love your neighbour as yourself.” The two go hand in hand, for “if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another” (1 John 7).
I’m speaking of the church, not the world, in case you’re not sure.
Certainly, let us not put the cart before the horse. God comes first. But your relationship with God is not lived out in a vacuum, it is lived out amongst others in a relationship with God. Even the Living God Himself, the triune God, lives in community (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). We abide in him, he abides in us, and through local church we equip and teach others how to abide in Him.
Else how would they know the message unless someone speaks it to them? (Romans 10).
Talking about Bible translations, I wouldn’t rely on the NIV. The NASB or ESV is far more better, being a more literal translation. The NIV is a transliteration (thought for thought) rather than a word for word translation, such as the NASB or ESV or KJV.