Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts?
Rob Bell, Shane Hipps, Peter Rollins teaching Arts and Crafts? No, Never, Cant be!
Agenda of Poets, Prophets and Preachers conference: Rob Bell [Emphasis added below]
Sunday July 5
Rob Bell – The Original Guerilla Theatre: throwing ourselves into this ancient, sacred art form with the absurd, naive, antiquated belief that the world needs inspiring, provocative, comforting, dangerous, healing, great sermons now more than ever
[DTW note: What Rob Bell REALLY means here. Ancient, sacred art = paganism, occult. By art they actually mean the craft or ‘art of the craft’. In short it means this: The experience and feeling you can attain by following ancient sacred knowledge by practicing certain disciplines.
Monday July 6
Rob Bell – The Story We’re Telling: sin, salvation, business, art, justice and the importance of beginning in the beginning
[DTW note: they are saying that you have got to go back to the beginning, go back to where ancient knowledge originated from, where sacred arts originated from in order to move forward. How far do we have to go back? To the very beginning, of course. We, each individual person, needs to eat from the tree of life in order to gain knowledge.
Genesis 3:4-5 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”]
Peter Rollins – Returning to the New – An Introduction to Transformance Art: what do flash mobs, performance artists, and pirates have to do with Christianity? exploring how the church can act as an aroma of the coming kingdom ….
[DTW note: The Aroma, Peter is talking about is the fragrance of the coming Christ (kingdom). What he said is purely Buddhism/Eastern religious terminology for this would be the Fragrance of the Lotus (third eye/6th charka). Lastly flash mobs, performance artists and pirates have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. You however Peter Rollins, are more than welcome to act like a clown in your emergent circus.]
Shane Hipps – How Technology Shapes the Sermon: the art of preaching evolves with every new technological innovation in a culture. do you know what is being done and undone by our technologies?
[DTW note: Shane believes that the message of Christianity has been evolving over time. To the point it has now changed and no longer applies to Christians lives.]
Rob Bell – The Fig Tree and the Failure of Language: moment, movement, mystery, and the science of homiletical architecture (alternate title: why some sermons work and others don’t)
[DTW note: As per Rob, preaching will only work in this New Age of ours, if you turn the stories of the Bible into mystery, imagination, magic, etc]
Tuesday July 7
Rob Bell – Fumbling Around with Your Radar: tools, questions, approaches, and everyday 5 minute disciplines that have helped me understand where sermons come from
[DTW note: The disciplines Rob is speaking about are things like: meditation, contemplative prayer, centering, silence, circles, mantras, posture, yoga, etc, etc, etc]
Peter Rollins – For Those With Ears to Hear: Parables and the Lost Art of Provocation: an exploration of that theological dis-course that holds the power to send us hurtling off course and onto a new one
[DTW note: Peter’s attempt at a play on words here, what he means is that: theological reasoning (questioning what the Bible has to say) holds the power to put us onto a NEW path]
Shane Hipps – You Are the Medium: an exploration of the human being as God’s ultimate medium for his message. if the medium is the message, and you as a person are the medium, then what does that say about the message?
[DTW note: Shane is saying that we don’t need the Bible anymore, because we as humans hold the message of God within us. Human beings are now the vessels, that carry the message. Just something interesting to note: A Medium (Channeller) in Spirit ism is also someone who has ‘something or someone’ speaking through them.]
Rob Bell – The One Thing I’ve Never Heard Someone Talk About That Has Changed Everything for Me
[DTW note: Rob, would you like to talk about it? Just get it off your chest, don’t write in circles anymore, just come clean, say what you mean!]
———-
Things said at PPP on Monday, taken from here: Nuvuslumen.com
“How image culture is shaping Christianity….In the image age we move from churches that look like traditional pew based…to more experiential, relational, and communal candle-circle situations.
[DTW note: PPP is saying that the the Word of God has become an image, picture or imagination instead. Because it’s no longer the truth anymore, and the truth is now inside each human being. When you experience it, this new truth that is, through the human senses/faculties (hearing, sight, smell, touch, taste) you will feel the difference. You will be able to relate what you have been taught and heard to what you can feel.
It’s like experiencing a labyrinth, you will go around in circles; where the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end. This makes you feel a bit bewildered and makes you think, ‘hang on, what’s going on here?’ So you go back, you retrace your steps and you find yourself at the same place you started at. They told you this is would happen when you walk a labyrinth, but you needed to experience it for yourself to understand thereby acquiring ancient knowledge.
“Image based culture is to thank for Jesus becoming primary again…this is what is happening. We become what we behold.”
[DTW note: The Word of God which is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ which is the Word of God, has now been shoved to the back and replaced with “Jesus the Image” or “Jesus of your imagination” as far as all those at PPP are concerned. The Image Jesus has now become the primary focus. Because each person has the truth inside them, they become what they imagine, they can become like like Christ – a god.]
“…Our thinking patterns actually mirror the things we use to think with…”
[DTW: PPP means this; once we have moved into the ‘new,’ our thinking actually goes back to the ‘old’, the way we used to think – like pagans where we worshipped creation and ourselves as part of creation]
“…Christianity is fundamentally a Communication Event. A God revealing God’s Self to the world. He used a variety of mediums to communicate that event: fire, scrolls, people, Jesus…
[DTW note: NO! God only used ONE way: The Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Words that God spoke in the Old Testament was Jesus Christ. The Words that were spoken in the New Testament was Jesus Christ. The Word that was written into the book called the bible after Jesus Christ the Son of God rose from the dead is still the Word which is Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Word of God and nothing else. You CAN NOT remove the Word from Jesus Christ the Son of God and you CAN NOT remove Jesus Christ the Son of God from the Word. If you remove on or the other you have nothing, absolutely nothing.
I do however wonder about this statement in more ways than one; “He used a variety of mediums to communicate that event: fire, scrolls, people, Jesus” If we are to go back to go forward does that mean that we go back wards from Jesus, to people, to scrolls and then to fire”?
So let’s go back wards from:
- Jesus Christ (Word of God)
- People (Speak new words, supposedly inspired by ‘god’)
- Scrolls (New message is written down as being the ‘gospel’)
- And it all ends in Fire
Hmmm….well…..um….*speechless*]
“…the METHODS always change but the MESSAGE stays the same. Translation of Greek/Hebrew into English is a new Method, but the Message hasn’t changed. Bedrock foundation of which we navigate the changes of culture and be faithful to the message God has been given throughout history.
[DTW note: PP says that the methods (the mediums of communication) changes but the message stays the same. Again we are to remove the Word of God because it’s not needed anymore; we have other methods of communication.] Which is a load of rubbish.
“…what McLuhan taught us is that the MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE. The way you say something matters as much or more than WHAT you say.”
[DTW note: You see the Bible convicts people of sin, this is why the Bible needs to be removed by ‘PPP and Friends’ and replaced with people’s loving words instead, where there is no conviction of sin and no need to repent of sin, because there is no such thing as sin. The Bible will soon be legally decaired hate speech. ]
“…Last supper: 12 people meet over wine in upper room and invite a guest to share what they believe and why…then it is their last supper. Omega course…12 week course in how to exit Christianity (in response to Alpha course) Lots of people wanting to exit…its about exiting toxic religion and getting to a place to ask any questions.”
[DTW note: well, that’s pretty self explanatory.]
“A sermon is about helping people see this new creation with their own eyes.”
[DTW note: the message Satan is tryng to get across here is this; the idea is that you need to help people realise they have the message within them. Help them realise they have ‘Christ’ within them. The goal is for them to see themselves as a new creation through God’s eyes or their own eyes (third eye located in the forehead/6th charka).
“The whole world is our rhetorical toolbox, because its all God’s”
[DTW note: This is Panentheism]
Some prefer the pantheistic belief whereas other prefer to believe in panentheism, Here are the definitions.
- Panentheism: All (pan) is in God, yet God is transcendent over everything. (Notice the difference between panentheism and pantheism). Some would assume that as everything in the universe (positioned in God) evolves, this unbiblical God would also evolve and grow in knowledge and complexity.
Pantheism: Everything is God and God is all. Since God is everything and everything is God, everything is sacred and interconnected.
“Preaching is a Transformational Art where you try to convince the social self the inner self.”
[DTW note: As per PPP, ‘preaching’ is now called Transformational Art (lol). Basically what they are saying is there is only one way to preach in this new age of ours and that is to get people to realise they are Christ. You need to convince the person on the outside to recognise the god on the inside]
Just one little other thing I want to add.
Maybe Zondervan a division of Harper Collins should start by going backward, to move forward by asking Harper Collins to remove the Satanic Bible from their publications list: http://www.harpercollins.com/book/index.aspx?isbn=9780380015399.
And if need be Harper Collins can go back to their subsidiary company News Corporation and ask them if they can move forward by going back to the storeroom and throw away all the Satanic Bibles they printed recently, even the ones that go way back when.
Once they do this we can move forward from there. But somehow I don’t think we will see any movement at all.
Now that is what they call ‘Speaking in Circles’ it’s an art form that dates way back when…and is still used today
Oh Sorry Discerning that comment was for Amanda, not you. I have no real intention of talking to you anymore. Grace and peace to you.
lol, you people just can’t stop can you. You might be naive, I’m not.
Send Rob Bell here to come fight his own battles, I don’t think he needs your help.
>> I have no real intention of talking to you anymore
Oh good.
You are really arrogant if you think this is fighting some battle. This is nothing but me being amused before I leave for work.
Uh…right. Wonder what else you do for fun.
Here is the same answer I gave you under the Discernamentalist Mafia article:
Dear Joe
I think Rob Bell is very pleased with you that you are here standing up for him and his occult teaching. This is a spiritual battle. If you read your bible you would know that.
Ephesians 6:12
New International Version
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
New American Standard Bible
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
International Standard Version
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.
Gave you 3 translations just incase you dont understand. I hope you do now.
And then:
Ephesians 6:10-18
Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints .
The ARMOUR is the WORD OF GOD
But you are always welcome to ask Rob Bell if this is true. Love to know what he has to say on this.
Got it. Shane Hipps was talking about something else, not Christianity. That is what Chris Rosebrough said, too.
Notes on Pete Rollins’ teaching as blogged by novus.lumen:
Comment made by novus.lumen:
That is just swell.
Pete Rollins:
This is not Christianity.
Chris Rosebrough sails to the rescue, once again, to those who have trouble discerning what Shane Hipps is about.On his program Fighting for the Faith on Pirate Christian Radio, he reviews: Shane Hipps’ Sermon at Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church on the Spiritual Discipline of Silence.
Pirate Christian Radio
Craig
>> I dont mean to be trite, but if this is such egregious heresy that bell et al are preaching, isnt it primarily Gods concern?
Well then you should not worry about what I write 🙂
>> Does building the kingdom really work best with a wrecking ball? Thats not what I see from scripture
Well first things first; which Kingdom are you speaking about; the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God? Once you have figure it out, let me know why you think God is incapable of hangling either Kingdoms?
And I really can’t dialogue with you, I’ve got a few things to sort out at the moment and some research on some other stuff. But I will check out your blog in a few days time. I edited/removed your link (that was in purpose), but I also accidentally deleted the wording before the link. That was a mistake. Sorry.
Your blog name is attached your your username, people can click that and go check out the article you wrote.
Gosh. I was there but I must have been sleeping – all that ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’ must have been going on in another room.
Seems like DTW you’re pretty fired up about all this. How’s that working out for you? I don’t mean to be trite, but if this is such egregious heresy that bell et al are preaching, isn’t it primarily God’s concern? Does building the kingdom really work best with a wrecking ball? That’s not what I see from scripture.
I went to the conference and I admit that I found Rollins a bit annoying. Bell’s obviously had enough of being a punchbag but I really did think that Hipps was spot on. Just because someone talks about breathing and using one’s body to interact with God doesn’t make him full of ‘panentheistic, Hinduistic, Eastern crap’. Honestly he was about as controversial as a Pilates class.
[url removed]
Craig:
Shane Hipps quotes:
Craig:
and
There you go then.
oh lol, well spotted… Craig how many rooms were there? How many fingers am I holding up? 😉
Craig
>> I guess well just have to agree to disagree
Unfortunately I can’t agree with anything Shane Hipps and posse has to say, unless they turn from their wicked teachings that lead people astray, away from the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
>> Im happy to filter the nuances of his language and get some decent meat off the bone
Why waste time ‘filtering’ when you can get the Truth when you read the Word of God itself.
The Bible is the best quality meat with no bones. Hows that for a metaphor. Gosh I am getting good at this. Emergents have been telling me I am so useless with metaphors, so I’ve been practicing.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Like I said, I think Hipps was good and I’m happy that the words ‘spot on’ sit beneath the quotes you’ve put up there. I’m happy to filter the nuances of his language and get some decent meat off the bone – if that’s not too much of a mixed metaphor.
I’m happy that this Church of ours contains so many varied voices, and I think the debate’s an essential part of our communion. Of course I agree that there are absolutes, and there are things that we are instructed to turn away from, but I don’t see our primary function as followers of Christ to be internal wrangling.
There will be many things that you and I agree on. Like I said, let’s discuss things and see what we have in common. I’m really happy to approach it in the spirit of wanting to learn from you, and you from me. But let’s agree that it will take more than the odd one-liner and quotes taken out of context to achieve that.
Best wishes
Craig
1. What is the correct context for the following 3 quotes?
2. What makes it legitimate Christian teachings?
Craig
>> but do you really think that defending the Christian faith and standing up for the gospel of Jesus Christ is best served by you guys huddling together spitting venom at those whose message and medium you despise?
What do you suggest? We join your side instead? That means we stop standing for the gospel of Jesus Christ and defending the faith. Alll rightyyyy then. Well lets, agree to disagree here. How about you stop defending false teaching and standing on the side wickedness and people who are out to do nothing but harm to born again Christians and those seeking the truth.
>> What about the continual theme that we see throughout scripture of Gods people engaging with the world around them?
Oh really? Scripture please. Let’s dialogue around this topic. You quote scripture to back this up and I will quote scripture to back up my standing for the Word of God. But now we have a problem here. You can’t go and quote scritpure because you don’t believe what it says… You can’t insult those who stand and defend what the Gospel of Jesus Christ says and then use the same gospel to oppose us. You need to use something else to back up your beliefs. Make sense? So you can quote from any other religious text but the Bible. Let’s see how this pans out.
Should be intersting. Are you up for the challenge?
Oh, and keep in mind when you DO have scripture that teaches us to be engaging the world around us don’t be surprised if I delete you. I will not stand for being questioned on MY blog. Got it? Now, run along and drink a coffee and love somebody.
OK, I’ll make this my last comment. If I’m in the wrong place here – if I, who you consider to be emergent, am not supposed to be joining in these discussions – then what is blog other than an introspective clique?
Of course we disagree on things, but do you really think that defending the Christian faith and standing up for the gospel of Jesus Christ is best served by you guys huddling together spitting venom at those whose message and medium you despise? What about engagement? What about dialogue? What about the continual theme that we see throughout scripture of God’s people engaging with the world around them?
Put it another way, I’m not so sure Paul would have bookmarked this site. He probably wouldn’t have liked mine either, but that’s a whole other story.
So, I’m sorry that we didn’t get to hit some ideas back and forth and I’m sad that I’m in the wrong place.
Craig
Ryan which blog should I engage you on:
The fake DTW 3 blog where you have commented and laughed and joked and lied about me, knowing who the person is who set it up, or
Should I engage you on your own blog where the fake DTW is commenting and you know who it really is and you laugh and joke and lie about me.
In fact don’t answer, I really don’t care. Others who see what you and your friends are doing will care and you expose yourself as something other than being Christian. But then again we knew this all along, and so did you, you know what’s in your heart and I won’t argue that you have something other than Jesus is there. It’s stolen the name of Jesus and it presents it’s hateful message as ‘good news’.
I have allowed you to comment on this blog 17 times. Your time is up, and so is any kind of reputation you were trying to build for yourself.
Thank God you are not Ryan’s judge. Or any one’s.
Perhaps there is a good reason people replicate a blog like this one: You mock the grace of Jesus Christ and the only way to get through to some is satire.
Hey DTW
I’ve used scripture for my own look at this article at my blog, but you haven’t engaged me there either at all.
What Craig is saying is it doesn’t make sense to talk about Emergents and what’s so wrong with them while refusing to speak TO Emergents, for the simple fact that “it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick”. (Matt 9:12.) If Emergents are sick then why are you not GOING TO them? Why are some of them unwelcome at your blog, to express their opinions and be shown where they are wrong rather than told they are wrong. The shepherd guides his sheep back to the pen, he doesn’t just smack them over the head and then tell them to find their own way back!
For, we are to “go into all the WORLD and preach the good news” (Mark 16:15). The gospel is about GOING TO the lost.
I don’t know who set up the DTW3 blog. Why did you assume that? Just because I let them comment on my blog?
I didn’t lie about you on that blog, either. I made a comment where I was pretending to be a hyper-fundamentalist. Did I lie about you? No.
But the blog is funny though. Unless your birth certificate says “Discerning the World” I don’t see how they have stolen your “identity”.
You’re avoiding the issue. And I don’t really care about my reputation… why are you worried about yours?
Ryan:
Because your slip is showing? You used Scripture to defend yoga!
That is outrageous!
Boredom? They have consistently expressed their opinion that DTW is bad for mentioning the unmentionable that is preached in the church today in the name of Christianity.
Let me tell you and show you. You said:
On Rob Bell’s Mars Hill Bible Church website you can see exactly what spiritual practices he is talking about and that they are currently studying it. On the 4 of July Shane Hipps preached on the spiritual practice of feasting. They all ate chocolate together, if I recall correctly. On the 12 of July Hipps preach on the spiritual practice of silence. This is the sermon that Chris Rosebrough ripped apart using words like ‘that is a lie’ and ‘liar’. He completely exposed the Scripture twisting used by Hipps to enslave the listeners.
The shepherd does not order his sheep to sit and converse with wolves, either.
Jesus Christ said:
He presented Himself as Lord and Saviour. Those who follow Jesus as the example for moral living, is following another Jesus whom the sheep will not follow, because they do not recognise his voice. This blog is about warning the sheep. The message to the goats is repentance and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus’ name. And DTW is not a shepherd, because she is a she.
Preach the Gospel, yes. Dialogue about what the Gospel really is, no. The emergents do know what the Gospel is, but they have rejected it in favour of the liberal’s inoffensive non-gospel.
Using Scripture to defend yoga! How could you?
Ahhh you see, this is why they can say that they believe and use the word of God in their lives. They use to to take everything that is wicked and try prove it right using scripture. That is why they can use the Bible to defend Yoga. Next they will use the Bible to defend murder of those who disagree with them.
But I must say that by the time I got to this sentence I burst out laughing…”On the 4 of July Shane Hipps preached on the spiritual practice of feasting they all ate chocolate together, if I recall correctly”
I stopped reading after imagining a bunch of grown men ‘feasting’ on chocolate trying to be all spiritual
Craig
We are not emergent and we do not follow the rules that the emergents drew up for the church. We have no wish to be part of the ‘ Yea, hath God said’ conversation. We know how that turns out.
Did God not warn them [see Deuteronomy for instance] and did they not suffer terribly for doing just that [see 2 Chronicles or the Wars Of The Jews by Josephus]? Jesus Christ told His disciples how to engage the world:
Paul told the church what to do about false teachers:
Well, now. I will try and explain. It goes something like this. Just as you cannot appreciate chocolate without tasting it, you cannot appreciate the pleasure of practicing the silence without doing it, just like Jesus did [NOT!]. Looking within yourself for answers is supposed to be very, very spiritual.
Ryan
>> DTW, Im sorry if I hurt you on the whole DTW3 thing. Ill remove the comments from my blog.
Thank you. I would really appreciate it if you please try email the person who opened this blog and tell him to delete it. It’s worth a try is it not. Because really, if he can do this to me, who says he won’t do this to you, or anyone else for that matter. This is not about beliefs. This is about morals, and values and principles. I would also like you to ask the owner of the fake blog to delete your comment you made there, not just the ones on your blog where he commented with my name. These are just personal requests from me, not demanding anything from you. So don’t take this the wrong way.
Like I’ve said before all over this blog, I don’t care what is said about me on others blogs, like you critiquing me on YOUR blog with YOUR name. Fair and square!
I am sure you would not like it one bit if someone went around using your name posting comments on others blogs and they think it really is you who said those things. And for them to say I brought this upon myself? So they can steal from me and then its my fault because it happened? No, no, no. This type of comment has a much deeper and rather awful connotation.
I don’t need to converse with you about this anymore Ryan. I thank you apologising, but honest and truly…I am tired and just not in the mood to discuss this anymore. I do however have a ‘Who Dunnit’ article ready and waiting to be posted, but I am being patient here, waiting to see if this person does the ‘right thing’.
The issues between us then go deeper than the obvious. We have different ways of reading scripture, that’s for sure.
DTW, I’m sorry if I hurt you on the whole DTW3 thing. I’ll remove the comments from my blog.
Amanda, you raise some very good points. Especially when you said “he doesn’t let them sit down and converse with the wolves”. That’s a good point, thank you.
This is the kind of conversation I’m looking for with you guys. See, you’ve just helped me to look at things differently by actually showing me where you think I’m going wrong. Not through a blanket statement of “read the bible” because we all read the Bible differently, as we all have a background of sorts and churches that teach us different things. As I said in my post, even the pope says he believes the Bible! And perhaps he honestly believes he does.
The 95 Theses was Luther’s effort in actually allowing for debate and conversation over issues; unfortunately, it also resulted in violence. Luther’s heart was to debate and find the truth, to talk about the specifics. Others took it as a way of choosing sides. I see us all on the same side, with some of us just more confused than others. That’s why iron sharpens iron, and why we must not neglect the gathering of the saints. We NEED each other to help us stay balanced and on the narrow path. But at the same time then we have to also be teachable, removing the plank from our own eye.
That’s all I’m really hoping for from you guys, and all I hope for from my Emergent friends; and also what I get from my close friends, my pastor, and my wife.
Tell you what, Ryan. Listen to yesterday’s edition of Fighting for the Faith where Chris Rosebrough deconstructs Rob Bell’s False Gospel and his version of history. Chris says that if you do not get the Gospel right, you are sending people to hell and it does not matter how many ‘good’ deeds you do. He claims that what Rob Bell is preaching is not Christianity at all. Those are pretty serious claims. Either Chris is right and Christians should be warned against Rob Bell or Bell is doing a great job and should be supported. Let’s compare what both these men are saying to the Word of God. We can differ on the minors, but not about the major teachings of the Bible. Listen to the two hour program and tell us what your conclusion is and why.