Cobus van Wyngaard – How unique was Jesus suffering?
Cobus van Wyngaard – How unique was Jesus suffering?
An article by a Theology student at TUKS (Cobus van Wyngaard – My contemplations blog). This is what the University of Pretoria produces. One needs to ask, are the students cheating on their exams or are the professors teaching this blasphemy? I opt for the latter.
Cobus totally fails or deliberately does not want to realise that Jesus Christ took on the sin of all mankind upon Himself and God turned away from Him for a short time when he was on the cross. This act alone was more painful than anything anyone experienced in the history of this world, no one else died for the sins of mankind Cobus, no one!
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How unique was the suffering of Jesus?
by Cobus van Wyngaard
I don’t know when this question struck me the first time, but attending an Alpha course again tonight it struck me again: How unique was the suffering of Jesus really?
I’ve heard it countless times, how Christians talk about how bad the suffereing of Christ was. About the extreme pain, how the extreme pain Jesus experienced was something that no one could even imagine. Add to that the fact that he was innocent, which supposedly makes the pain even worse!
But the more I think about it, the more this sound like utter nonsense. I mean, many others was crucified, many of them similarly innocent (understand the Roman government of the time and the role of crucifixions in keeping people in line to understand my comment). Thousands over the ages have been tortured and killed innocently, and I believe the human specie only got better at torture as time goes by.
It’s as if Christians have this extreme fear of finding out that Jesus was just another human like me and you. Just a plain crusifixion would have been extremely bad, just as bad as it would have been for any other human. You know that it was an early Christian heresy to downplay the humanity of Christ? But by amplifying the uniqueness of his suffering, ain’t we downplaying his humanity? As if the normal suffering that a human would undergo isn’t enough, it had to be worse than anything you could imagine.
I don’t doubt the uniqueness of Christ. But I believe that much of what Jesus did was not unique to him. The Bible doesn’t have a problem with this. It talks about sharing in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17; Phil 3:10), about following Paul like he follows Jesus (1 Cor 11:1), about disciples doing the same things that Jesus did (Matt 10). Jesus was imitated, followed. Others have done similar things. In many respects what Jesus broughts was not supposed to be unique, but rather point to something that is common! Maybe his suffering is not supposed to be unique either. Maybe his suffering is exaclty that which so many Christians suffered while being persecuted, which so many slaves suffered on slaveboats, which so many poor have suffered at the hands of the rich. The extreme example of what humanity is capable of! The value of the severity of his suffering then is not in it being worse that what others suffer, but exactly in it’s being just as bad as what others are suffering!
Again, I don’t doubt the uniqueness of Christ. But I don’t like the unnatural way that it gets enforced, and can’t see why this is neccesary. Had I been an outsider I might have asked if there is something these people are trying to hide by overemphasizing this so much?
source: http://mycontemplations.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/how-unique-was-the-suffering-of-jesus
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My comment below to Cobus van Wyngaard which I am sure he will delete as he has done with previous comments of mine at http://teoatup.wordpress.com. You are welcome to come comment here Cobus, I allow comments even by those who insult and deny Jesus Christ.
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I know you don’t cheat on your exams that is why I said I opted for the latter that your professors are teaching you utter rubbish that is NOT biblical in any way what-so-ever!
Should I quote you where you said that you will never ever say that the bible is the final word of God? That you believe that there are two books, the book of Nature and the Bible? That you learn from creation?
Ag, I can go on and on, but it wont help you Cobus…if you don’t understand the Bible by now and you are studying then there is a serious problem. Since I last spoke to you your articles on your website are getting more and more heretical.
Also the last time I commented on your TEO blog I mentioned that without the Holy Spirit you will never understand the Word of God. Do you have the Holy Spirit Cobus? Or do you believe you are a little god, that god is all and all is in god. That creation is god and you are part of creation.
Should I quote where you said that you will go out of your way to teach Lectio Divina to your youth group at your church?
Should I quote from you where you say that you can’t understand the difference between contemplative prayer and real biblical prayer?
The bible should make sense to you Cobus, it makes sense to ALL TRULY BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS and as much as you will disagree, once you are truly born again the bible makes sense IMMEDIATELY. Why? Because it’s only the Holy Spirit that leads us into ALL truth. You can’t lead yourself Cobus, nor can your lecturers, or your favourite Emergent authors.
So what’s the problem Cobus? Why do you get it so horribly wrong and write articles like the above? Why do you write such utter demeaning stuff about Jesus.
Because you follow The New Age Christ Cobus, not the Jesus Christ of Scripture. This is why you can write the way you do, you have tapped into another Christ, and this Christ HATES Jesus, and it shows through your writing.
PS, send your professors here, I don’t have time to run after false teachers and hold their hands while having coffee trying to explain things to them that they should know.
AMEN! Discerning The Word!Now i dont have to say anything.
>> because I doubt you care to have a cup of coffee with those you differ with..
So you finally agree that we differ and you are not preaching true biblical Christianity but Spiritualism for a New Age and a New Church with a New type of Christian.
Awesome, I am glad we cleared that up…pheww!
I don’t deny the word of God.
I don’t deny that Jesus is God, as well as Lord (both theos and kurios is used with Jesus the Christ).
I didn’t cheat at my exams.
You wouldn’t contact my professors, because I doubt you care to have a cup of coffee with those you differ with, you just want to publicly call them heretics.
My lecturers taught be about the word of God, and to treat it with respect. They taught me about Jesus, the Christ, who is God and Lord.
I won’t throw away my Bible, not one of them.
I’m so glad that the Bible makes sense to you, but for me, I’ll continue reading it, because I’m still learning a lot from it, and it’s still in process of making sense to me.
You can quote me all you want, you’re doing it anyhow, so please proceed if it provides you with joy.
Jesus spent a lot of his time dining with sinners, just sharing a meal. A cup of coffee is much quicker, maybe you should try that some time.
I’m thinking of testing some of what you said empirically. Do you think you can find 10 people who are truly born again? I’d like to put them in separate rooms and ask them to interpret scripture and write the interpretations down. Do you think they will give 10 exactly the same interpretations? Similar interpretations? You can choose the 10. Would it be necessary to give them the same translations if the Holy Spirit is leading them? I can organize that. Could even be KJV is that suits them.
Gives me joy? No Cobus you sadden me terribly because of those you lead astray, hence I warn of people like you. Jesus rebuked people, he threw over tables within the temple. The bible tells us to CONVINCE, EXHORT, REBUKE, TEACHING with all longsuffering and also TEST the spirits.
Please go ahead and test what I have said, it would only do you good. As for finding 10 people, would it convince you in any way that all genuine believers will interpret scripture correctly? No it wont convince you, so what exactly is your point? So you think the bible is an experiment to be played with? Do you then not understand that the Bible = The Word = Jesus Christ. You want to test Jesus? I know of someone else who also tested Jesus in the desert.
You are so steeped into mysticim and co convinced that the bible can be interpreted differently depending on the day of the year and what mood you are in. Only you can change your mindset through the Holy Spirit. But if you chose wickedness over the gospel of Jesus then that’s your perogative.
Pretty self explanitory if you ask me…I am sure I can get 10 people here to agree, and I am sure you can get 100 to disagree.
I hope you have not reached this point yet Cobus that you have gone so far as to completely reject the Truth. You have delved into the occult, you follow after teachers who tickle your ears with fables i.e., lies. Stop it now before it’s too late.
You quote scripture as one liners as you try so hard to explain yourself away. Understand this: Each book of the Bible is related and compliments all the other books. I can’t believe they did not teach you this at university, and if they did why do you not adhere to the rule!
And last but not least as I think this passage is going to be very important to you, specifically.
Yes, the truth will divide households and families will turn on eachother. Fathers will turn on their sons. Jesus says, you will have to love the TRUTH more than your family in these end times.
Seek the truth Cobus, you are in dire straights if you don’t want too because you prefer New Age teaching over the gosple of Jesus Christ.
Where on earth is Kameeldrif? In Pretoria somewhere?
PS, just let the congregation know what your mood was when you interpreted this passage, cos I am sure that will influence the outcome.
I’ll be preaching on Matthew 10:34-39 on May 27 at NG Kameeldrif. You can mail me for directions at cobus.w(at)gmail.com
I’ll give my interpretation of that text there.
In Pretoria. Forms the North-Eastern border of the city.
Don’t presume to know how I interpret a text please, or when I interpreted a text, or what my moods was. I mean you’re not psychic are you?
Oh Pulease!!
>> Ill give my interpretation of that text there.
You just said you will interpret YOUR way. LOL so as you can see I am not psychic just literate!
Email from Cobus after deleting another of my comments from his blog:
And as we can see Cobus has run away again…you did say I could post it Cobus. So here it is, deleting my comments again, but you allow a comment by a woman named Mari who says “There are too many blatant contradictions in the bible to have been written by God who has created a perfect universe. God is spirutual and not a man sitting in the clouds waiting to pounce on you”
So you wont accept genuine comments on propper interpretations of scripture hence you delete it cos you find it offensive but you will allow comments like the above. Ya, well that does not suprise me…come to think of it.
The comment he so promptly deleted that offended him terribly was where I said the following:
So once again you deny Jesus’ divinity, which means you DENY Jesus Christ.
I think you should stop speaking Cobus, the hole you are digging for yourself is getting bigger and bigger as the hours go by.
Last but not least, since you are still learning the bible, let me help you along with the correct interpretation of Matt 18, which has been so overquoted. Is this like one of the verses on your list of ‘what to say when cornered and can’t explain my wicked thoughts?’
As for Matthew 25 which part are you speaking about:
The Parable of the Ten Virgins? The Parable of the Talents? or The Sheep and the Goats?
LOL
Are you actually a pastor Cobus? No ways!! How did you pass??
I need to email the NG church in Kameeldrif and inform them that a wolf in sheeps clothing is coming to lead the congregation astray.
An email to the following pastors at Familiekerk NG Kameeldrif: Liesel Krause-Wiid, Roelf Opperman, Willem Pretorius, Maartje van der Westhuizen and the church office.
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Hi there
Please see following conversation with Cobus here:
Is this what you preach at your church? Is this the blasphemy that you allow? Is this what you lead your congregation astray with?
Do the people at your ‘family’ church actually know what some (possibly not all) of their pastors believe?
Would you have the guts to write a newsletter to hand out or an article on your website to your flock and explain to them that some pastors at your church (possibly not all) follow occult teaching, that god is all and all is god, i.e, that we are gods. That they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.
Will you warn your youth at your church that they are being taught Mysticism (contemplative prayer, centering prayer, breathing, silence, etc, etc, etc) on your ‘holy’ premisis.
I wait in anticipation to see how you chose to reveal this massive heresy to the people in the church who rely on your for scriputal, biblical teaching.
Thank you
Deborah
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I pray someone at this church cares for the truth!!
Ds. Cobus
On the one hand you claim that you have been well taught and on the other hand you proclaim your ignorance of basic Christian doctrine. You wrote:
“The value of the severity of his suffering then is not in it being worse that what others suffer, but exactly in its being just as bad as what others are suffering!”
No! The Word of God says:
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned–every one–to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:3-10
You said:
“You wouldnt contact my professors, because I doubt you care to have a cup of coffee with those you differ with, you just want to publicly call them heretics.”
Your publish your writings publicly and mislead many. Therefore you should be corrected in the public forum for the sake of those that you have misled. The Bible does not teach us to have coffee with heretics. On the contrary:
Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him. For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds. 2Jo 1:9-11
“Im so glad that the Bible makes sense to you, but for me, Ill continue reading it, because Im still learning a lot from it, and its still in process of making sense to me.”
You are an ordained minister in the church and should know and teach Christian doctrine. You are without excuse for writing the following in your latest blog post:
“The Bible has the potential of being important for our day. Challenging us in our time on some extremely needed issues.”
No, Ds. Cobus. The Bible is the Word of God through which He reveals Himself and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are expected to understand and to believe it.
If you do not hold to the penal substitutionary atonement, then you cannot claim to be a Christian. Christ-follower, yes. Christian, no. Ds. Cobus, you have been misled. Repent and believe the Gospel:
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 1Co 15:1-5
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it– the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Rom 3:21-25
Jesus Christ died on the cross for you, Ds. Cobus. Repent and believe.
Sorry. Here is the link to Ds, Cobus’ blog:
http://mycontemplations.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/some-assumptions-on-creation-and-text
Ds Cobus writes: .”.. but attending an Alpha course again tonight it struck me again: How unique was the suffering of Jesus really?”
No wonder the poor man is SO CONFUSED!
THATS what the ALPHA COURSE do to people who do NOT test EVERY spirit.
Surely Ds.Cobus, being “a man of the cloth” you should know better and is supposed to be a good example than to attend an ALPHA COURSE!
Elisheva
Ds. Cobus
I see you are planning a camp for Grade 7 youngster for July. You say:
Kernwaardes (vir jou ouers se oë)
Godgefokus: Die verhouding met God Drie-enig rig ons verhoudings met mekaar en met die wêreld.
Skrif- en belydenisgedrewe: Dit wat op die kampe geleer word is gegrond op die Skrif en die Gereformeerde Belydenis.
You also wrote last year:
“Well, we finished our labyrinth, and walked it for the first time yesterday afternoon. It was kind of cool to see how different people go there on their own today to walk the labyrinth. One girl doing her daily Bible study while in the middle. In the coming week we will be introducing some of the school kids to the labyrinth, will see how this go down for Afrikaans Reformed youth.”
Did you introduce last year’s camp to the labyrinth? Did you tell their parents about it before the time or did you promise them that what you will teach at the camp will be based on the Bible and the Reformed tradition?
Are you planning to introduce this year’s camp to mystical practises like Lectio Divina or / and the labyrinth? Are you going to do so without their parent’s knowledge and approval?
Good grief Amanda, you’ve got a very good point there. Do the parents know. Also do they understand what a Labyrinth represents??
You know people send thier kids on church camps thinking they will be in safe hands, not realising that their kids are being introduced to Occult practices. Like walking through Labyrinths…oh boy.
I hope that NG church replies to my email I sent, but somehow I don’t think do…would be nice, but I have my suspicions.
Ds. Cobus van Wyngaard objected to my commentary. The crux of the matter is whether or not his practices fall outside the DRC’s present understanding of what it means to be ‘reformed’, thereby misleading the parents.
The answer is of course not. He is innocent of the charge of introducing something new or undesirable into the DRC.
Ds. Cobus: I apologize for bearing false witness against you, that you are doing something wrong in the eyes of the DRC. That is a lie. I am sorry that my words damaged your professional image. I retract those words unconditionally.
I acknowledge that you are indeed honest and open about your beliefs and practices. Thank you for your patient answers and for clearing up my deception.
Cobus, seeing that we don’t want to damange your reputation, I will then have to ask the entire DRC as a whole Church if they are happy that they welcome false teaching, a gospel that denies the divinity of Jesus Christ. This way, the DRC can inform everyone that attends their church on Sundays as to what they REALLY believe.
This will give the people an option to stay and agree or LEAVE and save their souls from futher deception.
Sounds fair?? I mean surely you want to give people the freedom to choose. But this means telling the truth to the people. Because people can’t make decisions on lies now can they.
So instead of asking you to comment, I will ask the entire DRC board (please give me their contact details) and lets see if they have the guts to come clean. Hopefully those pastors who have been found unbiblical in every way will exit the back door, thereby bypassing any damage to their reputation.
Here is the email I will send to all the top notches in South Africa who insist on not telling us the truth. I think this is all I need to say:
After reading numouress debates on the emerging church and studying at the faculty of theology for the entire duration of 2009 I have decided not to return. The occult spiritualism taught at the faculty goes hand in hand with emerging church practices that are occurring daily in churches in and around Johannesburg and south africa. At the end of 2007 I decided to leave Mosaiek because they were teaching a different gospel and the same thing is sticking out its ugly head at Tuks Thelological . Cobus let me say this Christ’s suffering was true and real and not “symbolic” …If it was symbolic I would like to ask you this question – What was the need for the death on the cross or even a mention of it? Does sin exsist then? or is it just another fiction of our imagination? The same questions apply to the resurection of Jesus Christ …If you ask Prof Van Aarde he will argue and say that this too was just “symbolic”…
Your views
Seems like an old topic, but we have to remember that Jesus suffering was not just physical on the chross, there he carried our sins and suffered the full fledged wrath of God for it, but as Him being God rose from the dead 3 days later and is now sitting at the right hand of God.
So carrying the sins of ALL of us and suffering for it, now it seems pretty unique doesn’t it?
(hope to have written it correctly, my apologies but english is not my mother language)
Felipe
Exactly.
I admit that I am a little slow. It took me most of my life just to learn that! 🙂
What I mean is that while reading some of these blogs, after a while (my ‘slowness’)
I realized that – to all, except me, there was an understanding, a given, that the ‘one’
doing wrong is to be, immediately, ‘saved’, ‘converted’.
This confused me so I compared it to a thief robbing me at gun-point. To me
it doesn’t matter what he is saying. The bottom line is that he wants my money or whatever.
When I looked at it this way I could see that ‘you’ immediately want to ‘save’
the robber, regardless.
– If none of this makes sense, refer to the first sentence. 8)
Dust
Well I hope after all that you are saved. If it does not make sense, read this:
cobus wrote,
Jesus did not only share meals and a cups of coffee with sinners just for the fun of it, or because He was a member of the mystical Emergent Church. While He had meals with sinners He preached the Gospel to them and in doing so, He – the Word who became flesh – quoted God’s (his Father’s) words to them (John 14:24). I can only imagine that you, if He were still on earth today and you had a meal or cup of coffee with Him, would say to Him, Oh Jesus, “You can quote me all you want, you’re doing it anyhow, so please proceed if it provides you with joy.”
Cobus wrote,
Cobus, you guys from the Emergent Church (like Stephan Joubert) love to play little games. So let’s play a little game, shall we? Let’s imagine you are standing before Jesus Christ and his Judgment Seat. What are you going to say to Him? I can only assume that you will say to Him, “I’m thinking of testing some of what you said empirically. Do you think you can find 10 people who are truly born again? I’d like to put them in separate rooms and ask them to interpret scripture and write the interpretations down. Do you think they will give 10 exactly the same interpretations? Similar interpretations? You can choose the 10. Would it be necessary to give them the same translations if the Holy Spirit is leading them? I can organize that. Could even be KJV is that suits them.”
Do you know what Jesus is going to say to you? You don’t? Well, let me tell you. He will say to you: “Listen Cobus. Do you hear the beautiful singing? They are singing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by THY BLOOD [not any other criminal’s blood who deserved to die on a cross] out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Revelation 5:9).
But why should you, Cobus, believe Jesus? And where will you be when the redeemed will be singing a new song for Jesus for an eternity? I assume you will be forever testing everything He said empirically because your lecturers from the Synagogue of Satan (Seminar of the Pretoria University) taught you to do so.